Leica M Typ 240: Unreliable or Reliable - Survey

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LOL

The M 240 is weatherproof by Leica standards.

The M bayonet and M lenses are neither weatherproof nor dustproof.

Resistance against water is categorized by IPxx and protection against spray from any direction is IPx4. The Leica M240 may be resistant against water dropping vertically on to the body. This is IPx1 and it is not enough protection against rainy and windy weather.

 

I've often wondered why they don't just list the IP rating? Is it fear of liability? In other electronics fields I've come into contact with the units are simply rated, for example, "IP54". It's a defined standard and I know what I'm getting. Perfect. In photography it's all "weather proof" or "splash resistant" and other such vagaries. Most odd.

[sanyasi]

No--Not reliable.

 

In the past, I have had to occasionally remove the battery. Yesterday, while photographing Chicago's Gay Pride Parade, I had to remove the battery somewhere around 5 to 7 times. It seems to happen if I don't use the camera for 5 or 10 minutes--I was using multiple cameras. I am experimenting with some of the settings to see if that makes a difference.

 

Jack Siegel

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[lct]

Never had to remove any battery personally. Did you use an EVF?

[matlep]

No

 

No lockups yet.

 

I meant "Yes" i thinkj my M(240) is reliable. No lockups or hangups. Not using the EVF though.

[jaapv]

LOL

The M 240 is weatherproof by Leica standards.

The M bayonet and M lenses are neither weatherproof nor dustproof.

Resistance against water is categorized by IPxx and protection against spray from any direction is IPx4. The Leica M240 may be resistant against water dropping vertically on to the body. This is IPx1 and it is not enough protection against rainy and windy weather.

Leica:

Specially

designed rubber seals protect its body against splashes, moisture and dust, making

the Leica M a pleasure to use in any weather conditions.

Aditionally Mr. Daniel, when asked about this aspect explained that the lenses and mount by being made to narrow tolerances are weatherproof without redesign.

 

As long as they are not proven wrong by drowned cameras (precious few of those despite tens of thousands non- weatherproof M8s and M9s) I would suggest that they know what they are doing.

Edited July 1, 2013 by jaapv

[sanyasi]

Never had to remove any battery personally. Did you use an EVF?

 

Just once, when I received the camera. I have now turned off all features that seem to relate to it. We will see if that makes a difference.

[Rick]

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The whole "You have to own" to have an opinion is sort of oddly discriminatory and lopsided. Dismissing the fact that some fairly well respected photographers offered up DNG RAW files to download is also odd.

 

So, to form an opinion about a purchase, you have to actually buy the $7,000 camera first? Really?

 

Reliability is a subjectively loaded word, and depends on how you rely on a camera. Sending a camera off to have lugs repaired takes it out of the equation ... what if you sold your M9, so now you have nothing to shoot with?

 

I have a Sony A900 that's been through 4 full wedding seasons ... zero lock-ups, zero failures, zero missed shots due to equipment hiccups, need to reboot, or remove the battery and start up agin. Zero.

 

Subjectively, for my needs, I'd call that reliable ... anything less ... isn't.

 

- Marc

 

Marc - With all due respect, there are a couple of threads in which posters like yourself that do not own the camera are commenting on unhappiness with color and the reliability. Which is fine. Discussion is good. Get everything out in the open. I'm for that if, it helps Leica make a better M.

 

I simply start a thread that asks just those that own the camera what they think. Different sample group from those that don't have the camera themselves and can't really comment personally on the reliability or color from shooting thousands of photos.

 

To make it simple so, it doesn't digress into a never ending discussion of bayer filters and professionals that claim they know more because, this is all they do for a living, I make it simple and ask "yes" or "no" to just those that have extensive first hand experience with the camera - the owners. The survey let's every owner decide what their own definition of reliable is and what acceptable color is.

 

The question in no way explores the lock-ups or tries to quantify the color or explore PP and profile solutions. I think everybody answering the Survey understands this. That is left for other threads where experts can discuss ad nausium about which cards and EVF and bayer filter array and profile etc... And, I'm not saying there isn't a place for that, not at all.

 

I am saying this: I happen to think that, in general, the actual owners are pretty smart and understand their own camera more than those that don't own one, therefore they would be a good group to sample about their opinion. I give them a lot of credit. I have learned that we have some pretty smart owners and they may not be professional photographers, but a lot of them have a deep understand about photography, have been photographers all their lives, and many are even PhD'd in very technical areas related to photography.

 

But, when, the overwhelming response of owners is "YES" - the camera is reliable and the color is fine with PP, folks like you cry foul, calling the survey "stupid," "discriminatory" and "lopsided." You contend that the survey is "odd" that you have to own the camera to have an opinion. I never said that at all. You are obviously more than welcome to have an opinion (color and reliability is not good as your A900)... just not in this survey.

 

Rick

[wlaidlaw]

My original 240 had a few lock ups and strange battery discharge events. The main problem was caused by faulty reassembly after the lug repair, where it constantly took movies, without the movie button being pressed. To give Leica their due, they replaced the camera with no quibbles. The new one seems so far, so good.

 

Wilson

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Rick,

 

If your "survey" wants to have any statistical validity, you would need to show that.

If you can't prove that it does, well, then it's meaningless indeed!

[Rick]

Hi Rick,

 

If your "survey" wants to have any statistical validity, you would need to show that.

If you can't prove that it does, well, then it's meaningless indeed!

 

It is just a survey on a forum on the internet. I could ask, are you happy with your wife and you would argue the results.

 

Get over it. The overwhelming response is that owners think the color is ok and the their camera is reliable. That is all it is. I know it is hard for you to want to believe, but your perception of the reliability and color is your own opinion and obviously not the opinion of almost everyone that actually owns the camera.

[macjonny1]

The nice thing with forums is that we don't have to read anything that doesn't interest us. Why come here and call the topic and OP names and such if you don't like it? Why all the extreme negativity?

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Rick,

 

Thanks. I personally have nothing against a survey, done by you or anybody else.

However, what I care about are the inferences that are drawn from it and their scientific validity.

 

I hope that Leica will get on top of the (on this forum) reported deficiencies and release a firmware update before my M number comes up at the dealer.

Otherwise, I may ask to defer shipping me an M until those issues are reportedly corrected.

 

BTW, my M9 still takes gorgeous photos with the WATE - unless I get in the way.

 

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[Rick]

k-hawinkler -

 

Rest assured, I don't think any inferences are drawn from this survey that negate individual experience with a reliability issue. Being as perceptive as I am I detect resentment of a survey like this because, I believe Leica enthusiasts don't want Leica to ignore possible problems with lock-ups (we hope that is behind us) or with color (we are worried the CMOS may not live up to the M9).

 

So, these folks lash out at a survey that they perceive is a Leica Fanboy causing a landslide of other biased Leica Fanboy Owners proclaiming the camera is the best ever! So, the survey must have no validity, it is biased, stupid, etc...

 

But, remember, I had no way of knowing the results would be this lopsided. I just stuck my neck out based on my own unbiased perception of my experience with my camera. I didn't allow anyone to sway my belief because, they were an expert or ran a well known blog site.

 

I just felt that this is a really good little camera, much better than my M9, and the color is actually great and it is way more reliable than my M9. Sure, I'm looking forward to an update to the firmware and I have been vocal about some problems. But, I'm sure fixes will come with time and updates.

 

My advise to you is that I would take any M camera your dealer has for you now, if it is offered. I really can recommend this camera without reservation. As critical as I know you are I am sure you are going to be pleased and even more so after the first firmware update addresses some minor niggles.

 

Lastly, great photograph. I love my WATE and I have some great color photographs with the combination of the M9 + WATE and I have no reservations that I am going to get even better photographs from my M + WATE.

 

Thanks for your last comment,

 

Rick

[lct]

So 27 yes and 2 no right?

[wlaidlaw]

So 27 yes and 2 no right?

 

I assume you are classifying mine as a no and a yes

 

Wilson

[pieterpronk]

Wow, so almost 7% of those owning a 7000$ camera, find it to be unreliable. That's quite a big problem, I would say, for a camera manufacturer that prides itself on reliability. And this with many of the owners deeming having to send back their camera within the first month of ownership, or the camera locking up once in awhile, to be no reliability issue. Also not included are those choosing not to own the camera because they deem the camera to still have reliability issue, or unfinished color profiles.

Ouch...

 

 

[jdlaing]

Wow, so almost 7% of those owning a 7000$ camera, find it to be unreliable. That's quite a big problem, I would say, for a camera manufacturer that prides itself on reliability. And this with many of the owners deeming having to send back their camera within the first month of ownership, or the camera locking up once in awhile, to be no reliability issue. Also not included are those choosing not to own the camera because they deem the camera to still have reliability issue, or unfinished color profiles.

Ouch...

 

 

 

7% of the people HERE........

 

Minuscule.

[Guest tanks]

7% of the people HERE........

 

Minuscule.

 

So, if it was 0% then the sample size would have been adequate?

[pico]

Wow, so almost 7% of those owning a 7000$ camera, find it to be unreliable.

 

 

Certainly, 7% seems to be a reliable number to depict incompetent, inexperienced or unrealistic owners,

.

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[CalArts 99]

Just a personal observation here, but I think a problem with this 'poll' is that the words 'reliable' and 'unreliable' are generally subjective. One might feel that if their new car leaves them on the side of the road, that it's still a 'reliable' car and that it simply needs a tweak or a specific parts replacement, etc.. Another person might very well categorize being left on the side of the road as a sign of an 'unreliable' car and once is enough.

 

It's kind of obvious that this thread was started in response to a reviewer stating that they felt the M240 was 'unreliable' because it had left them on the side of the road. The rest of the reviewer's comments were about "irritating factors" that they personally had about the camera's design but did not contribute to it being 'unreliable.' The reason they decided to call it 'unreliable' is because their personal tolerance for being left on the side of the road had been reached. The camera had locked up too many times for their comfort level.

 

If the OP of this thread is concerned about 'reliability' then I don't quite see how a poll with a blanket 'yes' or 'no' to the words 'reliable' and 'unreliable' can serve to reveal anything. To wit: some are answering yes, it's 'reliable' but it has locked up before. Therefore to them, 'reliable' means something different than it does to the reviewer in question, or to someone who isn't comfortable when their camera locks up on them. And no one is explaining what 'reliable' or 'unreliable' actually means to them (even though the OP said to feel free to define it.)

 

The poll should be something along the lines of "has your M240 locked up on you and if so how many times." Then maybe we can have some data about any actual issue that may be behind the 'unreliable' commentary afforded by the reviewer (remember the SD card issue with the M9 early on; there was an informative thread reporting the number of card writing failures and the brand of the cards used, etc..)

 

If you read 'polls' in car forums, rarely is it asked "is your car reliable." Instead, specifics are asked such as "have you had a head bolt snap" (with the AMG M156 motors which could happen in some of the early batches.) Or how many times has your HPFP failed (which was happening with the BMW N54 motors.) Some people will feel that the car is 'reliable' even if it did suffer the issue. Others might have decided that one incident was enough to call the car 'unreliable.'

 

I think for these sorts of 'polls' to be truly helpful, one probably shouldn't ask them in a way that serves as a riposte to another person's opinion (i.e, the reviewer in question.) In the end it's more effective to share the specifics (e.g., "have you experienced any lockups and what were you doing at the time," etc..) And then let the owner/potential buyer decide for themselves about what constitutes 'reliability.' Otherwise the threads have the potential to turn into school yard arguments and often don't end up being very productive.

Edited July 2, 2013 by CalArts 99
typo