CheshireCat Posted July 2, 2013 Share #81 Posted July 2, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Certainly, 7% seems to be a reliable number to depict incompetent, inexperienced or unrealistic owners,. Thanks for calling us incompetent, inexperienced and unrealistic. I love you too. And thanks to all you 93% for delaying the next firmware release. Keep on the good work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Hi CheshireCat, Take a look here Leica M Typ 240: Unreliable or Reliable - Survey. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
k-hawinkler Posted July 2, 2013 Share #82 Posted July 2, 2013 :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gilgamesh Posted July 2, 2013 Share #83 Posted July 2, 2013 In the top 10 non-sticky threads as I reply, I suggest to you that yours is a self fulfilling prophesy: New m with problem - help M240 auto ISO setting issue WARNING! M and bellows 11 M240 won't turn on 4/10 top original threads are about issues with Leica's new baby. Would you buy a new car if ever this was the same scenario with your (potential) new purchase? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 2, 2013 Share #84 Posted July 2, 2013 I see you do not frequent car forums... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted July 2, 2013 Share #85 Posted July 2, 2013 I see you do not frequent car forums... Judging from this forum, Leica seems to be the worlds only car-manufacturer that makes cameras instead of cars. Well, it would certainly explain the many issues and reliability issues their cars/cameras seem to have! 7% of Leicas own most loyal fans who preordered their cars a year in advance and visit Leicas own forum daily, deem their new car unreliable! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 2, 2013 Share #86 Posted July 2, 2013 In the top 10 non-sticky threads as I reply, I suggest to you that yours is a self fulfilling prophesy: New m with problem - help M240 auto ISO setting issue WARNING! M and bellows 11 M240 won't turn on 4/10 top original threads are about issues with Leica's new baby. Would you buy a new car if ever this was the same scenario with your (potential) new purchase? My subjective opinion is that "Digital leica's can be unreliable compared to other mass produced cameras". However, counting problem threads is no more or less objective a method of judging that as this survey is, is it? Users generally won't take the time to come in here and report that nothing's wrong. By it's very nature they tend to report in here a problem in the hope of finding shared experience or solution. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted July 2, 2013 Share #87 Posted July 2, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, if you wanna get serious about the issue of reliability (instead of silly surveys and thread counting), I have to admit that "Digital Leica's can be unreliable compared to other mass produced cameras" is similar to my subjective opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 2, 2013 Share #88 Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) And replace "Leica" by: "hand-assembled." I had a Morgan where they had driven tacks to hold the upholstery through the cable loom, an Elektra espressomaker where I had to bend the pipes straight, etc. Humans are not robots. The problem of quality control in hand-assembled lines is that you have random errors - sometimes in a series (eg strap lugs), somtimes in an individual camera. But you cannot pull each and every camera apart to check. If you have an automated production line you can do periodic checks, if needed destructive, and when an error has been found you can be certain it has been repeated identically in a whole batch, which can be traced. Not an apology -Leica, being into precision engineering should do anything they can to prevent any error and I am sure each discovered problem is a learning moment - but an explanation. Edited July 2, 2013 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 2, 2013 Share #89 Posted July 2, 2013 Humans are not robots. So why is Leica using el-cheapo Humans instead of Robots to build a $7000 camera ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timd. Posted July 2, 2013 Share #90 Posted July 2, 2013 hand-assembled firmware. unique selling point! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 2, 2013 Share #91 Posted July 2, 2013 Judging from this forum, Leica seems to be the worlds only car-manufacturer that makes cameras instead of cars.Well, it would certainly explain the many issues and reliability issues their cars/cameras seem to have! 7% of Leicas own most loyal fans who preordered their cars a year in advance and visit Leicas own forum daily, deem their new car unreliable! :confused:A response to the post above it.... InWould you buy a new car if ever this was the same scenario with your (potential) new purchase? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 2, 2013 Share #92 Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) So why is Leica using el-cheapo Humans instead of Robots to build a $7000 camera ? Because hand-made is their USP? You don't know much about the German labour market if you call human workers el-cheapo... Edited July 2, 2013 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 2, 2013 Share #93 Posted July 2, 2013 hand-assembled firmware. unique selling point! Robot-made firmware would be an interesting phenomena... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted July 2, 2013 Share #94 Posted July 2, 2013 c'mon guys ..... a google search of ANYTHING with 'reliability issues' in the search string produces plenty of interesting things........ this is from last year.... Sounds familiar ??? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/207857-leica-m-typ-240-unreliable-or-reliable-survey/?do=findComment&comment=2363795'>More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 2, 2013 Share #95 Posted July 2, 2013 Because hand-made is their USP?You don't know much about the German labour market if you call human workers el-cheapo... Just teasing However it is interesting how Leica marketing says just the opposite, i.e. only Leica's highly-trained humans can ensure uber-excellent control and precision that no robot can ever achieve. You seem to be a little out of sync, don't you think ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted July 2, 2013 Share #96 Posted July 2, 2013 In general I agree with Jaap's comment about being hand made. Buuuuuut... I think that in mechanical and optical matters they have the capability to hand make and hand QC check the products and deliver a low failure rate. With the exception of the lug issue most of the M9, MM, and now M240 reliability issues are electronic or coding problems. These things don't fall under "hand made" in my opinion the code should be as good as the best code out there (whatever your opinion is on that - apple, Bosch, siemens etc) and the PCB's, sensors etc are built by robots and should be checked as Jaap describes - also providing for a low failure rate. But it seems to me that the coding is *still* below the level of the mechanical and optical standards, as is the circuitry etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 2, 2013 Share #97 Posted July 2, 2013 c'mon guys ..... a google search of ANYTHING with 'reliability issues' in the search string produces plenty of interesting things........ this is from last year.... Sounds familiar ??? Hey, Leica did it on purpose, to sound as good as Nikon ?! However it took one year for their engineers to emulate the same lockup issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furcafe Posted July 2, 2013 Share #98 Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) So far over 3 months of modest use (delivered 3/28), yes, in terms of camera function. The strap lug recall prevented me from using it during a major overseas trip, but I'm not sure whether that's a reliability or quality control issue (assuming a line can be drawn between them). As background, I was an early adopter of the M8 & M9. My M9 routinely had the typical lockup issues requiring battery removal (usually buffer/card-writing related). My M8 had defective electronics out of the box (AE not working) & had to have the selector wheel changed after a year; it also had lockup issues related to the buffer/card-writing. This is a survey question for anyone who actually owns the M Typ 240. It is a simple question. Please Answer YES or NO only. There is another thread for discussion. It is the current thread about a blogger that got a camera he judged as unreliable. I'm just curious about a broder sample than just one camera copy. Please update the tally as you post. Do you rate your M Typ 240 as Reliable? Simple as that. Feel free to fairly apply your own definition of reliable when you answer either Yes or No. Thank you. Yes (1) No (0) Edited July 2, 2013 by furcafe Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timd. Posted July 2, 2013 Share #99 Posted July 2, 2013 jaap, i was referring to 'leica being all handmade'. while it might be ok for morgans ans elektras (my cimbali also looks very 'handmade' concerning wiring and plumbing) to show traces of traditional craftmanship in upholstery and the bends of tubing, because this is not linked with the basic functionality. if the brakes on your Morgan fail once in a while or if your portafilter doesn't fit tightly it's not ok. QC can help finding these issues before shipping to customers. if QC fails, the whole manufacturing does look bad from the outside perspective. Coding is not done individually for every camera. 'Handmade Quality' as a very leica-like USP doesn't work here. Most of the mentioned problems, locking up, sd-card issues are not hardware related. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 2, 2013 Share #100 Posted July 2, 2013 Well, the nail in the Morgan shorted out half the wiring and started a minor fire within a month of delivery, so I am not THAT sure about fuctionality. Still I drove the thing happily for twenty years afterwards, quirks, warts and all. And on the subject of reliabilty - and I apologize for the car analogy, but they are a technologically complicated device that everybody is familiar with- I had a Volvo 745 Turbo that had a habit of breaking down by blowing up a number of computing devices. In the end the fault was traced down to an intermittent mass contact because paint had not been removed properly from the contact surface. Quality control or inevitable human error? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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