Leica/LUF @ P'kina in English

[lct]

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There is no digital Bessa alas. The last one was the Epson R-D1.

[pop]

There is no digital Bessa alas. The last one was the Epson R-D1.

 

The R-D1 still can be bought. There are some decent copies around, I seem to remember that you were quite content with its IQ.

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[starwatcher]

Good grief.

 

You really do read into things what you want, don't you? Between you and Frank facts have less chance of surviving than film.

 

Shifting in 3 posts from:

 

"Now we know the S system will never be complete..."

to:

"Yes, Leica says the S system will be developed further..."

 

is a feat of flip-flop worthy of Red Ed.

 

keep cool - this is simple psychology. People read out of it what they want to read out.

Reality bites

[lct]

The R-D1 still can be bought. There are some decent copies around, I seem to remember that you were quite content with its IQ.

Sure i am and i'm still using two copies of it. It's just that an old Leica user like me must still use 6 years old Japanese cameras with his Leica lenses instead of the digital M3 i've been dreaming about for so long.

[hoppyman]

....... a Titanium M9 without flash, or hot shoe for a wide angle viewfinder....

 

Frank as I already explained when you first said this, it DOES have the same flash sytem as serial M9's. There is a blank fitted in the shoe for cosmetic reasons.

 

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But why on earth will it matter? It seems very unlikely that any of those special editions will ever be used.

As for your maybe for an M10 on 10/10/10, I think that you may be very disappointed very soon

Edited October 7, 2010 by hoppyman

[redbaron]

Geoff, I think Franky is just setting the stage for his "missed opportunity" thread on October 10.

[sdai]

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keep cool - this is simple psychology. People read out of it what they want to read out.

Reality bites

 

Even a 2 year old could figure out something is fishy if you promised him 5 candies when he only sees 4. LOL

 

It can't be more simpler and clearer, Leica announced the 350mm and the 24 T/S, if these lenses don't actually show up, then the lineup is incomplete.

 

Somebody may actually have bought into the S2 system in anticipation of these lenses, now you tell them ... oh, they won't happen, because of ... what?

 

Can you speak louder or, select font size 7 and BOLD characters?

 

Oh wait, Leica has never said anything ... never mind, that's just a flip-flop worthy of forum threads.

Edited October 7, 2010 by sdai

[UliWer]

In response to Bill's rhetoric above maybe someone or even Bill himself can explain how the S2 will overcome competitors such as Hasselblad, and Phase One to create a sustainable profitable business with what we learned at Photokina: ...

 

I think I already wrote it, please excuse my many faults when I write in English:

 

At the Cologne meeting one of the Leica representatives said that the world market for medium-frame (not large frame as I wrote before) cameras was 6000 pieces a year (i.e. 12 months). Leica has sold - according to what they said - "approximately a four-digit number" during the first six months of 2010 (i.e. half a year).

"Approximately a four-digit number" could be interpreted as "about thousand".

 

If this is true and Leica's estimation about the world market of medium frame cameras is right, your question, how the S2 could overcome competitors as Hasselblad and Phase One is answered.

 

Do you have any facts which say that Leica's estimation about the world market or their information about a "four-digit" number are wrong?

[Nicoleica]

Do you really need instructions to tell you to put something in your trouser pocket?

 

That was the polite answer by the way, the alternative involved the phrase "where the sun doesn't shine".

 

Sorry all. I have just choked on my ginger wine after reading this.

[sdai]

Do you have any facts which say that Leica's estimation about the world market or their information about a "four-digit" number are wrong?

 

I don't think anybody on this forum could come up with some credible numbers to backup their argument like this, UliWer.

 

But, consider that Leica could move 500 sets to M9 Titanium at $28000 a piece in ONE shot, 1000 units of S2 in 6 months after spending 30m Euros really can't be hailed as a success.

 

There might be folks who have switched from Hassy and P1 to S2, but as Leica themselves have admitted, I suspect that most of the S2 customers are probably amateurs who could have never considered medium format otherwise - due to their cumbersomeness and less of the halo effect of a red dot.

 

What Leica has gained on the S2 front won't necessarily be translated into Hasselblad and P1's loss.

[mjh]

There might be folks who have switched from Hassy and P1 to S2, but as Leica themselves have admitted, I suspect that most of the S2 customers are probably amateurs who could have never considered medium format otherwise - due to their cumbersomeness and less of the halo effect of a red dot.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if all pro level cameras were bought mainly by amateurs (and I am pretty sure this is true for Canon’s and Nikon’s offerings).

 

What Leica has gained on the S2 front won't necessarily be translated into Hasselblad and P1's loss.

… implying that competition in the medium-format market isn’t a zero-sum game as some had surmised; rather the medium-format market may actually be growing (also due to the Pentax 645D). And that would be a good thing, everything considered.

[rosuna]

I don't think anybody on this forum could come up with some credible numbers to backup their argument like this, UliWer.

 

But, consider that Leica could move 500 sets to M9 Titanium at $28000 a piece in ONE shot, 1000 units of S2 in 6 months after spending 30m Euros really can't be hailed as a success.

 

There might be folks who have switched from Hassy and P1 to S2, but as Leica themselves have admitted, I suspect that most of the S2 customers are probably amateurs who could have never considered medium format otherwise - due to their cumbersomeness and less of the halo effect of a red dot.

 

What Leica has gained on the S2 front won't necessarily be translated into Hasselblad and P1's loss.

 

That analysis is correct sdai. The S2 has access to a new public, due to the red dot and the sexy design of the camera. Those new clients for the S system may be new medium format users, and they are very special people. They are very insensitive to price, and they are helping to recover the initial investment very quickly. 1000 cameras means 18,000,000 euros of income, in just 6 months. I guess the initial target was that number for the first year, so sales of the S2 seem to go well. Nothing wrong with that. Only Leica can do this. Nor even Hasselblad (a strong brand too). The same happens with the titanium M9. Etc.

 

The point is that gold mine is limited. I don't know the size. Maybe it is large enough for a full recovery of the total investment in the development of the S system (30 millions). Sooner or later the system would have to be more and more supported by professionals, a different public, more sensitive to price, features, completeness of the system, etc. A tilt and shift lens the first year is not a good idea, but it would be necessary at a later stage (it is practical and Hasselblad and Phase One have solutions for this). It seems they are considering the sequence, how to develop the system. Wide-angles and a zoom lens is the natural next step, but they will not stop there. They will have to adjust the price too. Not at this moment (it would not make sense), but they will do it later for capturing public more sensitive to price (and that seems to be the people coming lately to the medium format cameras).

Edited October 8, 2010 by rosuna

[Posto 6]

Remember, the 30 million is but the initial investment. To continue to support the range, with the passage of time the same costly development conundrums arise as for the R-system- but with a user base that is much smaller.

 

This range should be separated from Leica Camera asap into a JV with someone like Panasonic or a Chinese manufacturer- it has too much of a potential for pointlessly draining scarce resources from the group. As a standalone business unit (it has no visible synergies with other Leica ranges), it is anyway currently close to the peak of it's value, which would help Leica recover at least some of their ill-advised investment.

[Guest malland]

Unfortunately Leica doesn't have copier, printers and other business machines to support their camera division - unlike Canon and for that matter Ricoh. Other wise we might see an R system and or (speaking of silly) a modular camera system...

It's quite clear that Ricoh Camera has to stand on it's own and does not receive subsidies from the Ricoh Group, which accounts for the slow development of GXR modules. I don't know whether Canon pools it's R&D resources, but neither of these companies, just because they are part of a larger group, introduces camera lines which they know will not be profitable. To suggest that Leica would develop a digital R line if they had more funds is to think that its management really has a death wish.

 

Like Posto 6, I think the S2 investment was highly ill-advised — and the idea that the company now might pour good money after bad is problematic.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tokyo: It is love by people and special thanks for you

Edited October 8, 2010 by malland

[stunsworth]

IBut, consider that Leica could move 500 sets to M9 Titanium at $28000 a piece in ONE shot, 1000 units of S2 in 6 months after spending 30m Euros really can't be hailed as a success.

 

I guess we have different definitions of success and failure.

Edited October 8, 2010 by stunsworth

[marknorton]

1000 cameras means 18,000,000 euros of income, in just 6 months.

 

That's income though, not profit which is what pays off the development cost. Out of that €18m, you have to take off tax, dealer and importer margin plus the small matter of actually making the thing and doing marketing stuff like paying for their stand at Photokina and printing the brochures which weighted me down on the way back.

 

Still, if they have got 1000 out of a 6000 camera market, that's more than they were expecting, 10% IIRC.

 

The danger is that the bean counters will look at the profits of selling special edition cameras and decide they're a better bet than getting down to the messy business of funding the less mainstream S lenses. That's fine, until your deep-pocketed customers desert you for the Next Big Thing which is what happened during the Hermes era. No amount of dressed up cameras in fancy boxes could save them when they were in denial about the impact of digital.

 

Assuming Leica have more than one man and his dog working on camera body development, you do wonder what they've been doing this past year. Stuffing a few red LEDs into a M is hardly a lifetime's work.

 

The truth is that Leica are better - much better - at making lenses than they are cameras. There's little hope of them moving away from the tried and tested M formula - we are forever going to messing about with viewfinders and magnifiers and worrying about focussing accuracy which is why increasingly I take my Nikons with me and leave my Leicas at home.

 

I, for one, would like to see a new, alternative camera which can make use of the M glass, something like a FF Lumix GF-1.

[stunsworth]

Assuming Leica have more than one man and his dog working on camera body development, you do wonder what they've been doing this past year. Stuffing a few red LEDs into a M is hardly a lifetime's work

 

Mark, you've worked in an R&D led business, I'm sure you know the real answer to your (presumably rhetorical) question. I would imaging that the M10 is now at a fairly advanced stage of development - as far as the feature list and engineering is concerned even if a working prototype is a way off.

 

I have no idea of the timescales for digital camera design, but given that Fuji have presented a non-working prototype of the X100 6 months or so before it becomes available, I would imagine that it has been bouncing around inside the company for quite some time and there is still work to be done on it.

 

As far as using M lenses on a GF-1 type camera is concerned, I personally haven't found it to be a very pleasant experience, but that's probably just me.

[nhabedi]

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if all pro level cameras were bought mainly by amateurs (and I am pretty sure this is true for Canon’s and Nikon’s offerings).

 

Yep, I fully agree. I've also said this several times on this forum.

[stevelap]

..........I, for one, would like to see a new, alternative camera which can make use of the M glass, something like a FF Lumix GF-1.

 

........As far as using M lenses on a GF-1 type camera is concerned, I personally haven't found it to be a very pleasant experience, but that's probably just me.

 

 

I went shopping for a new compact camera a couple of days ago and expected to come home with a GF1. The camera itself was good enough, but I need a viewfinder and whilst the compact design of the GF1's external EVF was ok, the same can't be said of its performance. The built in EVF's of the G/GH series were better, and the new Olympus EVF for the EP-2 seemed slightly better again (doesn't fit on the Panasonic though) but, to be honest, I was disappointed with all of them.

So, back to square one and the top end small sensor compacts from Canon and Nikon. Being more of a Nikon man I'll probably go for the P7000, in the interests of menu commonality etc, tiny OVF and all.

 

Back on topic, if Leica and/or a partner are developing a future EVIL camera, I hope they pay very close attention to developing an EVF a generation beyond what's available today. If it works, the proposed X100 hybrid opto- electronic VF sounds promising. Time will tell.

Edited October 8, 2010 by stevelap

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[terrycioni]

It's quite clear that Ricoh Camera has to stand on it's own and does not receive subsidies from the Ricoh Group, which accounts for the slow development of GXR modules. I don't know whether Canon pools it's R&D resources, but neither of these companies, just because they are part of a larger group, introduces camera lines which they know will not be profitable. To suggest that Leica would develop a digital R line if they had more funds is to think that its management really has a death wish.

 

Like Posto 6, I think the S2 investment was highly ill-advised — and the idea that the company now might pour good money after bad is problematic.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tokyo: It is love by people and special thanks for you

 

I hardly want to suggest that a new R replacement digital system coming from Leica, if they had the resources, is a good idea. I think Canon and Nikon pretty much dominate in the DSLR world, but not in the d-rf or d-mf.

 

My dumb ass guess is the next Leica body will do both M and R lenses, but who knows other than Leica and they are only hinting at the future.

 

I often wonder how people on forums know how these companies do business internally - ie; the camera division has to stand on it's own, that is a big bold statement that precludes many simple aspects of being part of a large company. Hell what do I know, I don't run a large enterprise, so I can only speculate. You seem to have some sort of inside knowledge of Ricoh....I assume because you use their cameras (everyone on an Internet photo forum know this).

 

As far as I can ASSUME the President and executive of these companies - run the whole company, I also assume shared infrastructure (HR, IT, buildings and so on, etc). I would guess these are major costs being paid for by all part of the business not just the camera division, isn't that how it works?

 

(SDAI) Leica is a small camera company no way around that - and like you I wonder about the S2 as well. It was likely paid for by M lens sales, M digital bodies sales, compact body sales and a wealthy committed owner. I am guessing of course. I hope the S2 is extremely successful for them. Not in my price range or need range but none the less a beauty.

 

Terry

Edited October 8, 2010 by terrycioni