M8 ; The Good The Bad The Ugly

[Jamie Roberts]

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I can imagine your frustration. I'm sure Leica is aware of this -that is why they set up an express and a pro service. I think that even with the distance, e-mail> UPS >Solms would be the best bet?

 

Jaap--that's probably true, and in future maybe I'll do that. I wish, though, Leica would just get local setups arranged so things don't have to go back to Solms (or, as you say, there could be an express Pro service. I know they talked about that, but I've never seen any details yet).

[Guest BigSplash]

Sorry, Frank, again, you have no concept what you are talking about. These are highly trained specialists that need to be trained for years if they want to do another specialty in the factory. You are comparing a low-skill worker mass producing industry with a small workshop-style specialty company.

Btw, in a mass industry a one-day turnaround repair means : if you can't exchange the module in ten minutes chuck it in the bin and let aftersales handle it. I'm sure nobody would want Leica to work that way.

 

In the semiconductor industry there are also specialists and these people learn one item (3 months training typically) then they learn a second and so on.....I therfore agree that a person with knowledge of say 10 specialist trades is highly skilled and valuable.

 

Jaap therfore on the same basis Leica could relatively quickly build a service team to fill critical understaffed areas and eventually that becomes easier as you have more people trained in a range of skills.

I am not saying you can find some out of work guys down at the labour exchange office and ask them to have a bash at stripping down Leica cameras or rebuilding lenses and all they have to do is wash their hands first!

 

My main point is that Leica service dept has always been expensive, has always had a much too long cycle time, and I do not think that they organised to track the level of service provided to the client from the moment the client drops off the camera. The fact that they have recorded 80% (successful turnaround time) shows something is wrong, and the fact that they think that is acceptible speaks volumes.

 

You say that other Mfgs. chuck the total camera in the bin if the module cannot be exchanged in 10 minutes is interesting and incredible......I am surprised. Is that Canon 5D you refer to? That attitude may make sense for Kodak Instamatic end of photography but not for high end (My view).

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[Guest BigSplash]

Sorry... just a question: did you write correctly M 5 (five) ? I cannot consider signficant of their capability of planning repair turnaround the time needed to fix a camera that, If i remember well, went out of production 30 years ago or so... It's already a lot appreciable they still accept to service it....

 

You are very generous...I did mean M5 (FIVE) and I believe that Leica is a prestige mark that has as a differentiation that :

1) They will service old kit

2) They will do the repair in a fast time frame

3) They will be price sensitive while making a profit doing the repair

 

They score in my book 1 out of 3 which is poor and I believe we as users should push back on this.

Rolls Royce, Jaguar Mercedes Bugatti, Ferrari, Porsche achieve it and BMW will even organise parts for their Isetta bubble car which is 50 years old. so Leica need to step up to the mark in my view.

[Guest BigSplash]

And just how many repairs do you think Customer Service are handling at any one time? This includes all the P&S models. Then think about all the spare parts required to service/repair cameras back to the 1930s. On the CS tour last Friday it was pointed out that behind "that" door was a store with around 7500 different spares for the current and more usual repairs. The other 21000 spares for the rarer items were held elsewhere.

 

The photo below shows just one of the several holding racks for repair items. Unless it's guarantee work a repair means book job in, prepare estimate, send estimate, hold for owner ok, then schedule the actual repair with all the checks and QA. Any talk of a one day turnaround is simply phooey!

 

[ATTACH]147351[/ATTACH]

 

Sony Vaio do it...so do Dell, Toschiba HP.........The user gets a quote if he asks for this and the clock obviously stops, until there is an acceptance email (which I have personal experience of doing this by return) then the work happens.

 

I am not sure what the comment is about 7500 and 21000 items held elsewhere other than they ought to be in the same place as this would make logistics easier. I hope that this was jumped on at the site visit!

 

The spare part inventory numbers are very small compared to the car industry. I suspect compared to the watch industry also....think how mant Rolex models exist (old and current) and how many precision parts in each.

 

I actually do not understand why users are so ready to defend Leica on their poor service and accept what is given, when other industries perform so much better.

[Guest BigSplash]

Reading the thread with respect to service it seems clear that users should simply send their Leica item directly to Solms. This is NOT what the User manual says for the M8...they suggest your local dealer, who will send it to the regional Leica representative.

 

I would have thought they should make it user friendly to send things to Solms directly! where we should expect fast turnaround for all (not just pros*...)

 

*NB Actually I believe to preference one group of clients compared to another is against EU law and Leica may want to check this out!

 

Simple things like cleaning the sensor should in my view be done via a Leica Dealer that has been trained and approved to do so......if he screws up the dealer or the factory pay to repair it, not the client!

 

I hope that this message can be communicated to Leica management at the next meeting if people agree with the principle.

[stunsworth]

Simple things like cleaning the sensor should in my view be done via a Leica Dealer that has been trained and approved to do so......if he screws up the dealer or the factory pay to repair it, not the client!

 

User maintenance, no need to involve a dealer.

[delander †]

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That is true Steve but not for a new camera. When I got my M8 and the sensor was covered in rubbish I took it to the dealer who wet cleaned it. Suppose I had done that and messed up?

 

Jeff

[Guest BigSplash]

User maintenance, no need to involve a dealer.

 

Is this really something a user can do? Great , Superb and count me in!

 

I have however personally great concerns as I have seen various threads that suggest that:

> I had better buy a specialist kit, which I am ready to do that contains special alcohol (Methanol or polypropynol or whatever at what level of purity?) ...and then the text said that you had to be licensed to access this stuff, which I am not

> The text then said that the need was to use special swabs in a firm way on the sensor to remove any grease, oil marks and/or dust...it is apparently a delicate operation, but what does delicate traanslate to in real terms?

> The text made clear that simply blowing dust away with a low pressure air gun would only disperse any dust for a short time and it will revisit the sensor ...yet this is what the manual suggests, and then says if that does not work see your dealer! ( My dealer at least would send it to UK Leica and I am told that they would probably send it to Solms, but Leica UK are trying to find someone local to do this sort of work!

 

If you can point me in the direction of a clear authoritative description on how to clean the sensor, and what kit I should buy and where I can get it.... I would be very grateful

[stunsworth]

Is this really something a user can do? Great , Superb and count me in!

 

Do they not access to Google in France? Search and ye shall find.

[paga]

Do they not access to Google in France? Search and ye shall find.

 

Too busy posting 10 pages an hour on this thread to open another tab and google anything

[jaapv]

In the semiconductor industry there are also specialists and these people learn one item (3 months training typically) then they learn a second and so on.....I therfore agree that a person with knowledge of say 10 specialist trades is highly skilled and valuable.

 

Jaap therfore on the same basis Leica could relatively quickly build a service team to fill critical understaffed areas and eventually that becomes easier as you have more people trained in a range of skills.

I am not saying you can find some out of work guys down at the labour exchange office and ask them to have a bash at stripping down Leica cameras or rebuilding lenses and all they have to do is wash their hands first!

 

My main point is that Leica service dept has always been expensive, has always had a much too long cycle time, and I do not think that they organised to track the level of service provided to the client from the moment the client drops off the camera. The fact that they have recorded 80% (successful turnaround time) shows something is wrong, and the fact that they think that is acceptible speaks volumes.

 

You say that other Mfgs. chuck the total camera in the bin if the module cannot be exchanged in 10 minutes is interesting and incredible......I am surprised. Is that Canon 5D you refer to? That attitude may make sense for Kodak Instamatic end of photography but not for high end (My view).

I see your Sony laptop has miraculously morphed into a 5D.....

[jrc]

If Leica service were *really* acceptable, do you think it would generate this much heat? These aren't Leica-haters who are saying this, these are people who own the equipment. I have a misadjusted Noctilux that I would have to send in with the camera to get fixed, and the last time I sent the camera in, it was gone for six weeks. All my other lenses work fine, and here in the summer, I don't want to lose the camera. So I fake the Noctilux, or don't use it. That's an I-don't-know-how-many-thousands-of-dollars-anymore lens that I don't use because of service. Good-looking paperweight, though.

 

Can you imagine what this kind of discussion must mean to pros who might want to look at an S2?

[AlanG]

 

Can you imagine what this kind of discussion must mean to pros who might want to look at an S2?

 

Yes.

 

I can't understand why Leica doesn't subcontract work to repair facilities around the world. Nikon closed its Washington DC NPS shop and has the work done locally by Strauss Photo Technical Service - presumably for local pros in a hurry.

 

I can't imagine it is harder to work on an M8 than it is to work on a D3X, 1DsIII, 5DII, Rollei, Hasselblad, or whatever. There are lots of large service facilities around the country that do sub-contracted repairs for various manufacturers.

 

Over the past 25 years, I've needed service and custom modifications on a wide range of complex pro camera and lighting gear at various facilities locally and elsewhere in the U.S. I can't remember any of it taking more than a week or so.

Edited June 18, 2009 by AlanG

[cbretteville]

When visiting Leica Customer Service in Solms last Friday I asked how many work orders they handle in a year. The answer was "in excess of 30.000".

 

- Carl

[luigi bertolotti]

You are very generous...I did mean M5 (FIVE) and I believe that Leica is a prestige mark that has as a differentiation that :

1) They will service old kit

2) They will do the repair in a fast time frame

3) They will be price sensitive while making a profit doing the repair

 

They score in my book 1 out of 3 which is poor and I believe we as users should push back on this.

Rolls Royce, Jaguar Mercedes Bugatti, Ferrari, Porsche achieve it and BMW will even organise parts for their Isetta bubble car which is 50 years old. so Leica need to step up to the mark in my view.

 

Uhm... I am a lover of classic BMW twins, and had to wait 3 weeks+ 4 days for a plastic part of my R65 LS of 1983...

[jaapv]

 

I can't imagine it is harder to work on an M8 than it is to work on a D3X, 1DsIII, 5DII, Rollei, Hasselblad, or whatever.

As a matter of fact it is. All other digital cameras are more or less modular. Leica's electronics are all soldered together from separate components and squashed into a vintage body that is scarcely able to hold them all - seen Mark's "anatomy" thread.

[delander †]

When visiting Leica Customer Service in Solms last Friday I asked how many work orders they handle in a year. The answer was "in excess of 30.000".

 

- Carl

 

That is very interesting info I hope they are making good money from it.

 

Jeff

[Guest BigSplash]

That is very interesting info I hope they are making good money from it.

 

Jeff

 

This comment is bang on as is the earlier one where the user was reluctant to send his camera and Noctilux for adjustment as he feared losing these items for several months during the summer.

I also agree that if Leica service dept. is so good and efficient.....why are so many people upset about it? Not just in Europe but across the world!

 

A manager I once knew commented "It seem that everyone is apparently doing a great job, the workers are highly skilled, management is super .....but we are collectively failing!" Could this apply to Leica after sales service function?

 

I wonder how many of the 30000 are happy clients? I wonder how many people do NOT send in their kit as per the Noctilux story above?

[bill]

This comment is bang on as is the earlier one where the user was reluctant to send his camera and Noctilux for adjustment as he feared losing these items for several months during the summer.

I also agree that if Leica service dept. is so good and efficient.....why are so many people upset about it? Not just in Europe but across the world!

 

A manager I once knew commented "It seem that everyone is apparently doing a great job, the workers are highly skilled, management is super .....but we are collectively failing!" Could this apply to Leica after sales service function?

 

I wonder how many of the 30000 are happy clients? I wonder how many people do NOT send in their kit as per the Noctilux story above?

 

I wonder how often you have had cause to complain yourself about Solms service itself? Armchair CEO to rabble-rouser in a week - that's quite impressive.

 

Only quite, mind...

 

As a number of people have pointed out, you clearly do not understand the Leica business model, service structure or corporate ethos. Yet to the incessant beat of an inordinate number of exclamation marks in your every post you continue to broadcast how wonderful other industries are and how rubbish Leica is at customer service, marketing, strategy, product service, etc. As far as I can see the only aspect of the Leica operation that has escaped your approbium so far is the sport optics division, but that can only be a matter of time.

 

Leica have always shown themselves willing to listen to reasoned and reasonable user feedback. Show me another company in this market segment that would have hosted 100 users over a weekend. However I am sure that they, like I, am tired of the "I know best" approach from those who clearly do not and who pop up here for a while before getting bored and moving on to the next shiny thing.

 

Those of us who believe in the company, have taken the time to understand and generally support their actions find it tedious in the extreme. They are not perfect, but they have learned from the Stephen Lee debacle and continue to operate effectively in a difficult trading environment.

 

Prior to this point I have refrained from putting you on the ignore list because there was a degree of entertainment in reading your ever more fanciful emphatic declarations, but you are repeating yourself quite regularly now and enough is quite enough.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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[jaapv]

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