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M8 ; The Good The Bad The Ugly


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Not trying to start a pissing contest regarding images from other cameras but I don't see where the image quality from Canons, Nikons or any other camera is any better than my M8. I showed a 13"X19" print of mine to a 4X5 user friend of mine not too long ago and, not knowing what camera I was using, ask me if he could get that quality from his 4X5. All my Canon, Nikon and Pentax user pro friends want an M8 system because of the image quality. I don't want to come across as the dyed-in-the-wool Leica starry eyed fanatic because I know the camera has flaws BUT SO DOES EVERY CAMERA and I have learned to work with the flaws to produce excellent images that win contests, get published, and sell. I shot Nikons for 33 years and Canons for 9 years and honestly wouldn't go back to either one because I spent more time fiddling with the menus (especially Nikon, god you need a freakin' PHD to operate the menus and sub-menus on them) and less time shooting. People bitch about the high ISO characteristics but we used to have uglier grain in high ISO black and white film and it was called ART. Well, I feel better now that I've gotten that off my chest so time for another glass of vino.:eek:

 

I am very surprised by this because I have seen over the years and recently with M8 Leica optics are better than Nikon or Canon.

> My daughter bought a Canon and I must say I am impressed by its quality but when you zoom in to the photo displayed on a screen you quickly get fuzzy pixels yet with the Leica M8 you can zoom in twive more using PhotoShop.

> Colour tones seem to me more realistic with the Leica also, and some professionals have confirmed to me that this is their opinion also.

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> My daughter bought a Canon...

 

"a Canon"

 

I guess this sums up the level of the debate. Along with "I have a pro friend who says..."

 

Be happy with your camera. I'm happy with mine even though I know that other sensors have surpassed the one in the Leica. It doesn't bother me.

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Re service. Over 80% of repairs have a technical turnaround of 5 days. That is two weeks max including shipping. Redo-s are under 2%. (Official Leica figures)

 

Then Leica are recording the things incorrectly! On a Digilux1 for a problem with battery contacts it took 2 months to fix and a hefty bill (via French dealer). On a Leica M5 (via a UK dealer) it took 3 months for a service and when it came back the flash contact was none functional.

 

The NHS in UK have similar excellent statistics that improve year to year, and that too is a superbly managed org. Maybe they use the same methodology to obtain the data that they then use to congratulate themselves with.

 

In the semiconductor industry one learns that 80% means 20% is bad.....I cannot undertand why a camera is not turned around in one day, anything less is poor and means that parts are not available (That is Bad!) also apart fro poor service to clients I would have thought the faster the turnaround the more the revenue and profit!

 

Cameras do not need to be soak tested or checked for waterproof like a watch repair so one day is reasonable plus shipping to/from dealer.

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It is amasing that there is NO fisheye or 12mm to 15mm...for a camera that is better suited to wide angle than any SLR

 

You keep saying that a Leica is better suited to wide angle than any SLR, but it's only true for certain types of photography - like when Hasselblad kept the SWC in production alongside the 40mm Biogons.

 

Any time you need precise framing (especially where the visual relationship of close and distant elements of the picture is cruicial) or need to focus accurately closer than about 750mm, the Leica can't do it (unless you use a Focoslide and a tripod, of course).

 

Don't get me wrong. I use a 15mm CV lens on my M8 and really like it - but there are times when I need my wide-angle Nikkors.

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I cannot undertand why a camera is not turned around in one day, anything less is poor and means that parts are not available

 

I think the number of repairs being submitted and the number of people available to repair said repairs may also be a factor. In fact I'd guess the major factor.

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I think the number of repairs being submitted and the number of people available to repair said repairs may also be a factor. In fact I'd guess the major factor.

 

Then Leica should hire more people and not retire them so that they now work at home on repairing Leica cameras via ad hoc relationships with the dealer network.

 

They also could get better organised to do all repairs at Solms for example with a full comprehensive spare parts inventory for anything they may need.

 

Sony pickup a laptop at your door and DHL come with a purpose built padded box for this..it goes to the repair centre in Paris (for France) where it is bulk shipped to Ireland for repair....it then follows the same route back to the client's door. The process can take 4 days ...door to door and that includes repair, software reload, soak testing and check plus shipping.

 

Some items such as cleaning the sensor should be done on the spot by qualified dealers that have the kit and the training.

 

Personally I do not know many £4K pieces of kit that suffer such poor service levels from the manufacturer. For Leica it should be a differntiator.

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Then Leica are recording the things incorrectly! On a Digilux1 for a problem with battery contacts it took 2 months to fix and a hefty bill (via French dealer). On a Leica M5 (via a UK dealer) it took 3 months for a service and when it came back the flash contact was none functional.

 

The NHS in UK have similar excellent statistics that improve year to year, and that too is a superbly managed org. Maybe they use the same methodology to obtain the data that they then use to congratulate themselves with.

 

In the semiconductor industry one learns that 80% means 20% is bad.....I cannot undertand why a camera is not turned around in one day, anything less is poor and means that parts are not available (That is Bad!) also apart fro poor service to clients I would have thought the faster the turnaround the more the revenue and profit!

 

Cameras do not need to be soak tested or checked for waterproof like a watch repair so one day is reasonable plus shipping to/from dealer.

 

To expand on Jaap's data regarding turnaround, the head of customer service was very clear that this referred to the turnaround time once they receive the unit at Solms. He reminded us that when you give the camera (or lens) to your dealer, the dealer may often wait to batch it with other units before sending it to the distributor, who in turn may batch it before sending it to Solms. That is where your delays come from. Plus, each intermediary adds a charge for his efforts, which increases the overall cost to you. He suggested we deal directly with Solms for repair work in order to minimize the delays in total turnaround time.

 

One thing I learned visiting the Customer Service unit was that it was not comparable to a "semiconductor industry". Think of people (engineers, more specifically) whose life and sense of professional pride is wrapped up in making something as perfect as they can. This was no assembly line, rather it was like an artisan's shop.

 

Doug

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Then Leica should hire more people and not retire them so that they now work at home on repairing Leica cameras via ad hoc relationships with the dealer network.

 

They also could get better organised to do all repairs at Solms for example with a full comprehensive spare parts inventory for anything they may need.

 

3) The Leica shop should have on premises repair, including sensor cleaning and small parts such as filters and flash socket buttons......

 

.

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Frank, in addition to improving your spelling - whch is truly dire - you need to improve your knowledge of queueing theory.

 

A 1 day turnaround - meaning all equipment coming in is on its way back by close of next business day - would require them to run a much more costly operation - more people, more space, more spare parts - just to handle the peak traffic and on a normal day, there would be a severe under-utilisation of of resources.

 

Sony may well turn their laptops around quickly - I have used the same service - but just try getting anything over a few years old repaired, they will not even touch it. Not surprising then that your M5 took a long time to repair, you're lucky it can be done at all. It is, after all, nearly 40 years old.

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Then Leica are recording the things incorrectly! On a Digilux1 for a problem with battery contacts it took 2 months to fix and a hefty bill (via French dealer). On a Leica M5 (via a UK dealer) it took 3 months for a service and when it came back the flash contact was none functional.

 

The NHS in UK have similar excellent statistics that improve year to year, and that too is a superbly managed org. Maybe they use the same methodology to obtain the data that they then use to congratulate themselves with.

 

In the semiconductor industry one learns that 80% means 20% is bad.....I cannot undertand why a camera is not turned around in one day, anything less is poor and means that parts are not available (That is Bad!) also apart fro poor service to clients I would have thought the faster the turnaround the more the revenue and profit!

.

 

Each technician has his own statistical printout at his workplace. It is monitored very carefully. And if you had any understanding how Leicas are built you would find a turnaround on the workbench of five days max pretty good. This is not a robot industry spewing out a product every ten seconds. It is an artisan workshop.

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Then Leica should hire more people and not retire them so that they now work at home on repairing Leica cameras via ad hoc relationships with the dealer network.

 

So they increase their costs with no additional revenue - they'd still get the same number of repairs coming through the door. As a CEO what would be your reaction if someone suggested that? 5 days seems reasonable to me.

 

How long does it take to train someone to repair precision engineered items such as cameras and lenses? As Mark says, wht do these people do when there's a slack period?

 

Can you 'not retire' people? What if they _want_ to retire?

 

I know I'm not a CEO, but these are just a couple of the things that came to my mind.

Edited by stunsworth
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The IR issue has nothing to do with light levels.

 

Except that low light situations are often those with tungsten lighting which has a very high proportion of IR. I suggest that this is why people associate the IR problem with low light - it is simply because in such situations they see the problem more often and in a more acute form.

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Frank

 

You should use some of you spare time to

 

  • read the older threads in the M8 section. They will tell you a lot about why lenses need recalibrating, noise at high ISOs, green stripes, turn round times etc. All your questions have been asked here before if you use the "Search" facility
  • take a trip to Solms and have the tour of the factory and the customer service repair facility. You will learn a great deal about "Why does Leica...?, and of course, you can have lunch with Dr Kaufmann.

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Some items such as cleaning the sensor should be done on the spot by qualified dealers that have the kit and the training.

 

 

This is a good idea. Very shortly after I bought my M8 in April 2007 (two years already! what an old camera it is) I took it back to the dealer for sensor cleaning (it was very bad straight out of the box). They did it but reluctantly with some discussion as to whose responsibilty it would be if it went wrong (their's and Leica's of course).

 

Jeff

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Each technician has his own statistical printout at his workplace. It is monitored very carefully. And if you had any understanding how Leicas are built you would find a turnaround on the workbench of five days max pretty good. This is not a robot industry spewing out a product every ten seconds. It is an artisan workshop.

 

And if anything comes in with Jaap written on it they make a very special effort.

 

Dont they?

 

Jeff

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It would be nice if it were true ;) But yes- they are a small firm and they do recognize the names of many of their regulars. However, it does not affect the workflow in the repair shop nor do the heavy users get a discount :(:mad:

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And if anything comes in with Jaap written on it they make a very special effort.

 

Dont they?

 

Jeff

 

I've heard tell that the Leica Technicians have been known to include doggie treats in repair return boxes...

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That is indeed a very German thing to do. For instance many German e-bay sellers will include a little packet of jellybabies. So far I have collected from Leica: A large number of LCD protectors, a lens cloth, a little red-dot style box of sweets and a Digilux2 battery

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To expand on Jaap's data regarding turnaround, the head of customer service was very clear that this referred to the turnaround time once they receive the unit at Solms. He reminded us that when you give the camera (or lens) to your dealer, the dealer may often wait to batch it with other units before sending it to the distributor, who in turn may batch it before sending it to Solms. That is where your delays come from. Plus, each intermediary adds a charge for his efforts, which increases the overall cost to you. He suggested we deal directly with Solms for repair work in order to minimize the delays in total turnaround time.

 

One thing I learned visiting the Customer Service unit was that it was not comparable to a "semiconductor industry". Think of people (engineers, more specifically) whose life and sense of professional pride is wrapped up in making something as perfect as they can. This was no assembly line, rather it was like an artisan's shop.

 

Doug

 

I have seen this at Wetzlar before they moved to Solms and I understand what you say. I was impressed by the skill and pride that these guys have with respect to their work.

 

I also was impressed that the repairman asked to see my M4 at the time and he checked the shutter speed and rangefinder settings as I watched. Both needed adjustment and in secods he had the lid off and was examining the shutter screens etc for wear, he then precsion adjusted the shutter and the rangefinder ..Total time less than 15 minutes. I believe he could have disassembeled the complete camera and rebuilt in within the hour!

 

Now let's talk about the 2 -3 months it takes for such a job and the cost of such a service!!!??? I accept your point about deal directly with Solms but this is not well communicated and how do you organise that and then pay for it? (Do they accept credit cards? )

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