THE LAST FILM LEICA: M7 or MP?

[wizard]

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When we visited Solms this summer, so not that long ago, we were told that both the M7 and the MP are still in production. We were also told that MP sales outnumber M7 sales by quite a bit. An interesting comment from a Leica official was that sales of the M8 had surprisingly boosted sales of the M7 and MP, and that Leica was quite satisfied with MP sales.

 

It all depends on what you understand by the term 'in production'. Of course, Leica will adjust production of the M7 and MP to market needs. They are not stupid and will not produce a large number of M7s and MPs they are not likely to sell. But they will produce each M7 and MP they can sell. If I want one today, I can order one from Leica. To me that qualifies as 'in production'.

 

Andy

[Guest Posto 6]

This seems realistic.It also flies i the face of those who have an ideological need to "bury" analogue in favour of digital at all costs.

 

I am pretty sure that there is a recurring market for film cameras for the foreseeable future. Many new Leica converts- purchasing an M8 initially- end up getting a film camera as well. These will almost always buy a NEW camera to complement their new M8 and lenses.

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[mole73]

When we visited Solms this summer, so not that long ago, we were told that both the M7 and the MP are still in production. We were also told that MP sales outnumber M7 sales by quite a bit. An interesting comment from a Leica official was that sales of the M8 had surprisingly boosted sales of the M7 and MP, and that Leica was quite satisfied with MP sales.

 

It all depends on what you understand by the term 'in production'. Of course, Leica will adjust production of the M7 and MP to market needs. They are not stupid and will not produce a large number of M7s and MPs they are not likely to sell. But they will produce each M7 and MP they can sell. If I want one today, I can order one from Leica. To me that qualifies as 'in production'.

 

Andy

 

Thanks for your very informative message, Andy!

 

When I visited Solms 4 years ago they told me that in these first months of the production of M7 and MP the mechanical MP outsold her electronical sister 70:30 (but they expected a ratio of 30:70 before production of the MP started!).

These results are fascinating facts in these digital times...

 

And a few months after the production of the M8 has started (2006/2007) they said that the sales of both M7 and MP went up.

 

Long live the analogue M!

 

Robert

[mole73]

This seems realistic.It also flies i the face of those who have an ideological need to "bury" analogue in favour of digital at all costs.

 

I am pretty sure that there is a recurring market for film cameras for the foreseeable future. Many new Leica converts- purchasing an M8 initially- end up getting a film camera as well. These will almost always buy a NEW camera to complement their new M8 and lenses.

 

Leica always said that the "new" digital medium is just another medium, besides the long proven analogue medium.

 

Robert

[Guest Posto 6]

Long may this continue; such variety across their product lines gives them a distinct advantage at their end of the market.

[Leitzmac]

According to several well-known major Leica dealers in the US I spoke with, all of them still have film bodies in inventory, have not sold more in the last two years than they can count on the fingers of one hand, and have no plans to place a replenishment order. So if Leica has a crew of M7/MP assemblers standing at the ready, they should probably take a seat and put their feet up, because it's going to be a while before the start whistle blows.

 

 

 

Yes, I did forget to formulate my logic within in the context of altered reality present on Leica enthusiast forums. Shame on me.

 

 

 

Well with the add-on crank the MP/M3/M2 is just as fast as the M4/6/7.

 

I don't think Leica will produce any newer model of the film M.

About the only thing that comes to mind is if they make a digital viewfinder for the M digital they may put that into a film M.

Big problem with that is there is just not enough room inside the camera. Which means we're looking at another M5 or a total redesign of the camera and lenses.

 

I really can't see why anyone is buying new M7's or MP's at over $4000.

 

Having read the above I should now be questioning my sanity given my desire to purchase an (post 2003) MP in the near future, however I most certainly am not as it would appear the MP is still a brilliant tool for photography and superior in many ways to several preceding Ms. A call from the men in white coats isn't necessary just yet!

 

Incidentally why wouldn't a devoted film photographer be prepared to spend $4000 on a camera that is close to immortal when several digital cameras that I'm told will be outmoded in the next year or two are currently selling at around the $4000?

 

When we visited Solms this summer, so not that long ago, we were told that both the M7 and the MP are still in production. We were also told that MP sales outnumber M7 sales by quite a bit. An interesting comment from a Leica official was that sales of the M8 had surprisingly boosted sales of the M7 and MP, and that Leica was quite satisfied with MP sales.

 

It all depends on what you understand by the term 'in production'. Of course, Leica will adjust production of the M7 and MP to market needs. They are not stupid and will not produce a large number of M7s and MPs they are not likely to sell. But they will produce each M7 and MP they can sell. If I want one today, I can order one from Leica. To me that qualifies as 'in production'.

 

Andy

 

Thanks for the 'heads up' Andy.

 

Although I suppose I have already answered the question indirectly, I'm hoping it'll be the MP.

[Guest Posto 6]

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Perhap we will all still be surprised by further evolutionary developments by Leica, so I would not necessarily count on either being the last of the line.

 

Remember how, many years ago when the Leicaflex was introduced, the M range was being written off by pundits? History could easily repeat itself.

[earleygallery]

Incidentally why wouldn't a devoted film photographer be prepared to spend $4000 on a camera that is close to immortal when several digital cameras that I'm told will be outmoded in the next year or two are currently selling at around the $4000?

 

That's a very good point. If I were buying a new M I'd go for the MP - based on my M2 it would still be giving good service in 50+ years time.

 

I asked a certain London dealer about M sales and he confirmed that they are indeed selling M7's and MP's on a regular basis - the majority of M sales were for the M8/M8.2 of course but there is definately still demand for new film M cameras.

[redbaron]

Here are a few minor points to keep in mind:

 

1: Leica is a multi-billion dollar company that has survived a few recessions.

2: It is now run by Dr Andreas Dr Andreas Kaufmann who has very deep pockets and may have an entirely different set of priorities to the average Leica fan.

3:Leica has historically looked at two markets when making their production choices; working pros and serious amateurs who actually spend money on new gear. Internet trolls don't get a seat on the board.

[Guest DuquesneG]

Here are a few minor points to keep in mind:

 

1: Leica is a multi-billion dollar company that has survived a few recessions.

 

Leica is a tiny company, manufacturing products that even the die-hard fans can live without if push comes to shove. And this recession is closer to a depression than the little bumps in the road we've had in the past half century.

 

2: It is now run by Dr Andreas Dr Andreas Kaufmann who has very deep pockets and may have an entirely different set of priorities to the average Leica fan.

 

His pockets aren't endlessly deep, and I think it's safe to say he isn't insane, and therefore that his priorities don't include subsidizing the company until he's penniless.

 

 

3:Leica has historically looked at two markets when making their production choices; working pros and serious amateurs who actually spend money on new gear.

 

You have to go back at least four decades to find a time in history when Leica actually looked at pros as anything more than a source of endorsement, aimed at encouraging sales to the fan market. I suspect that even the S2, if in fact it ever sees the light of day, will sell far more to the MD/JD/DDS/CEO market than to pro photographers (nonwithstanding the one or two whose busy pro careers somehow still leave plenty of time to make long posts on multiple internet boards ).

 

Internet trolls don't get a seat on the board.

 

Neither do starry-eyed denialists

[redbaron]

Why does this company and its products attract so much vitriol? This argument is inane, pointless and a WOFTAM. My point, which may have been too subtle for some to grasp, was that Leica will probably be around for a while as it is no longer controlled by shareholders and their fickle, profit driven motives.

 

I am actually a working pro who uses film Ms solely, like every pro that I know. Mostly because no digital camera can work without access to mains power for more than a couple of weeks. Imagine shooting a three month assignment on the Trans Siberian Railway with digital. It's not possible.

 

If you like a camera buy it. It's a fairly simple concept.

 

Here's another fact: Most pros don't actually care what gear everyone else uses. I know sports shooters and we have the inevitable tech conversations, but we tend to concentrate on the images and how we get them. There is nothing more inane than a wanna be with his amateur DSLR trying to engage a pro sports shooter in a technical conversation about megapixels. Until you meet the opinionated squeezer who just can't understand why someone would still shoot film, or the wanker who thinks he knows how a particular company should be run.

 

DuquesneG, you have some issues. Here's a selection of past comments:

 

Sounds like a ploy to stir up year-end sales. With a worldwide recession, raising prices on Leica items is about as stupid as it gets, especially considering that every Leica fan in the UK with an...

 

Trust me, if they're that swamped in Allendale, feel very lucky your M8 isn't being done now. And at least they're not saying "sure, send it in!" and then sticking it on a shelf for 3 months while...

 

Vince, judging by your site, the only mistake you're doing is asking us for advice

 

No, your analogy is the one flawed. His hypothesis was if film were dead he would give up photography. Therefore, to respond logically my analogy had to refer to a dead medium.

 

ROFL! The real irony is that you would only draw positive attention to the minute number of people regressing from digital to film, vs the billion or so people who have happily and irrevocably...

 

I don't know why you opted to make yourself look like a dunce for the sake of a pointless callout, but it's your right to do so. My point of course was not directed at the person who sold his M8 in...

 

Next time tilt your head back and look up Bill...you'll see my thoughts flying over...still might be more of a stretch than you can handle.

 

Leica's marketing department has been sabotaging the company through several management/ownership changes. At some point, they need to wake up and see that we customers are not simpletons who crave...

 

I defy any of you to find one single time I ever called someone a name, let alone an obscenity that requires an * in place of the vowel.

 

Actually, if you had quoted my entire post instead of just selectively editing so to make it appear my comments actually warranted a spanking, everyone would see--again--that in fact if what Chris...

 

Well first, what I meant by purge was more like an enema than a mass firing. Make the marketing department a no-BS zone. Re-educate them to a new paradigm...put up inspirational signs like "Leica...

 

It's really unfortunate you can't seem to control yourself from interjecting your personal feelings into forum discussion, because I can't believe you don't have anything relevant to say. The poster...

 

I'm still waiting for a list of who those "lot of people" whose input Leica solicited. So far I only know about Sean Reid. I don't know any M8 owner who was contacted by Leica and asked whether or...

 

Whoever isn't in agreement with Dr. Kaufmann's business plan is welcome to join Steven Lee and those 99.9% of photographers around the world. This forum is a place to hear the choir sing, and to preach to it, not against it.

 

In the world at large, very few people know or recognize the name Leica compared to Nikon or Canon.

 

Have you ever wondered why your comments attract so much heat?

[stunsworth]

I'd just like to say that while I agree with his conclusion, I am _not_ Redbaron!

[Guest DuquesneG]

My point, which may have been too subtle for some to grasp,

 

So, arrogance and condescention is ok with you...as long as it comes from you. ROFL!

 

was that Leica will probably be around for a while as it is no longer controlled by shareholders and their fickle, profit driven motives.

 

I'm sure when Dr. Kaufmann reads that you think his motives aren't profit driven, he'll be rolling on the floor laughing...until he realizes what an insult it is to his business acumen.

 

I am actually a working pro who uses film Ms solely, like every pro that I know.

 

Bwaaahhhhhaaaaaa!

 

Mostly because no digital camera can work without access to mains power for more than a couple of weeks. Imagine shooting a three month assignment on the Trans Siberian Railway with digital. It's not possible.

 

Stop! You're killing me! I haven't laughed that hard in ages!

 

Here's another fact: Most pros don't actually care what gear everyone else uses.

 

...Unlike you, who spent half a day cutting and pasting quotes from my past posts (out of context, of course ) in order to defend the honor of his beloved brand. You are an hysterically funny fellow!

 

Quote removed by Mod

You certainly do add something to the tone of the forum...not saying what though

[Shootist]

 

Quote removed

 

 

Hey Redbaron, it is best to just ignore the people on this forum that rubs you the wrong way.

Replying to them in any form get you no where and only allows them to post another reply to you.

Eventually they will go away because they really have nothing to add and get tired of not being able to pick a fight.

The term for them in normal, real, life is a bully. Once you pay no attention to them, or knock them down, just once (but you can't do that on a internet forum), they either want to be your friend or leave you alone.

Glad to have you on the forum.

 

I have one thing to add about one of your statements. I've never been on the Trans Siberian Railway but don't they have some type of electrical power someplace on that train for heat, lighting and the like. Seems to me they would. But then I've never traveled on it.

[Guest DuquesneG]

 

I have one thing to add about one of your statements. I've never been on the Trans Siberian Railway but don't they have some type of electrical power someplace on that train for heat, lighting and the like. Seems to me they would. But then I've never traveled on it.

 

I know people who have, and of course they do. If he had, he would know that. Or maybe he just figures we're all too dense (or fearful of his tyrannical rage ) to call him out on such an obviously ridiculous contrived anti-digital "argument".

[andybarton]

I've never been on the Trans Siberian Railway but don't they have some type of electrical power someplace on that train for heat, lighting and the like. Seems to me they would. But then I've never traveled on it.

 

Even if they did, is it available to just anyone on the train, or reserved for staff?

 

Even here in the UK, it's only in the last 5 or 6 years that power sockets have been made available on intercity trains, and even then, not on all of them.

[Lucklik]

Perhap we will all still be surprised by further evolutionary developments by Leica, so I would not necessarily count on either being the last of the line.

 

Remember how, many years ago when the Leicaflex was introduced, the M range was being written off by pundits? History could easily repeat itself.

 

I think the M7 can be improved. When the M7 is on Auto and you mounth a flash. The expoisure is set to 1/50sec.

I would prefer it would also 'auto-choose' the slower exposure times like 1/30 - 1/15 etc.

This would make fill in flash very easy.

[Guest DuquesneG]

Even if they did, is it available to just anyone on the train, or reserved for staff?

 

Even here in the UK, it's only in the last 5 or 6 years that power sockets have been made available on intercity trains, and even then, not on all of them.

 

Two of my colleagues were part of an exchange program in the FSU and did a fair amount of traveling, including the Trans-Siberian RR. They were not "pro photographers" "on assignment" but they did have laptops, cell phones, iPods, etc., as did many of their fellow passengers. The assertion that a pro photographer "shooting a three month assignment on the Trans Siberian Railway" would not have access to electric power either on or off the train for three months, is not even worthy of intelligent discussion. Even pros (like NG shooter Michael "Nick" Nichols, just one example) who delve into the deepest remotest, most uncivilized regions of Africa for months at a time have shot everything digital for a number of years, carrying however many spare batteries and utilizing gasoline generators and solar chargers and whatever other technology they need to get the job done.

 

There's nothing wrong with anyone, pro or otherwise, choosing to use a non-battery-powered film-eating camera for his work. Film remains a perfectly legitimate medium, and mechanical cameras remain perfectly legitimate tools of the trade, and Leicas remain exemplary of the finest of those mechanical cameras. The only thing that I object to is the occasional individual who feels the need to insult the intelligence of those around him by making outlandish, preposterous assertions "defending" the use of film, postulating that we are ignorant and stupid and know nothing of the real world. It should be enough for someone to say "Hey, I like film and it's my choice to use it", which I certainly respect.

[andybarton]

It's only an internet forum... don't worry so much about it.

 

"Hey, I like film and it's my choice to use it"

 

And, by the way, "I'm Spartacus"

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[SJP]

Two of my ...snipped... "Hey, I like film and it's my choice to use it", which I certainly respect.

Agree, this is a reasonable line of argument. Electricity is not a rare commodity even in remote areas. Film is fun, nothing particularly wrong with it, but nothing particularly good either.