M8.2 shutter faults

[nhabedi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

So, I've had my M8.2 for a mere four weeks now and I've seen shutter faults this weekend. Granted, this happened when I wasn't photographing but deliberately trying to drain the battery, but I thought I should tell the story nevertheless.

 

The battery (which is as new as the camera and hadn't been emptied more than twice) was almost empty and I wanted to drain it completely before reloading. So I switched to continuous mode and fired a couple of shots and suddenly the display showed "Shutter Fault". The interesting part was that I was able to reproduce this reliably several times. It worked like this:

 

1. With the camera in continuous mode press and hold the shutter until it won't accept any more shots because the buffer is full.
    
   
2. Release the shutter and wait until you can shoot again.
    
   
3. Press the shutter again quickly for a single shot. Now go to step 2 above.
   

 

After going through steps 2 and 3 repeatedly for maybe half a dozen times, I always ended up with shutter faults. I heard the shutter recock several times, the display showed "Shutter Fault" and at that point I couldn't take photos anymore.

 

"Fixing" this was as simple as turning the camera off and on again. That brought the M8.2 back to normal operation until I went through the same procedure again which again resulted in shutter faults. I could repeat this (always with the same outcome) a couple of times until the battery was finally empty.

 

Interestingly, after I had put in my second battery (same age) which was fully charged, I could not reproduce the shutter faults. And after the first battery was recharged, I could also put it into the camera and run it through steps 1 to 3 without

any problems.

 

So, if there's some logic to this, then maybe shutter faults are related to batteries which are nearly empty. Have others had a similar experience? (Note that both batteries are new, both are original Leica batteries, and the camera hasn't seen any other batteries.)

 

I don't usually use continuous mode, so I'll take the camera to Japan next week hoping not to be harmed too much by this. But I'll surely bring it to my dealer once I'm back home. Whether this affects my way of shooting directly or not, I'm certainly very unhappy about this. This shouldn't happen with a 5,000 Euro camera and it shouldn't happen with a Leica.

 

I've used an M4-P (bought when it was already more than ten years old) for 15 years and it never ever failed on me. It always gave me the warm and fuzzy feeling that it'll easily take another decade or two, and I've heard from others that they had similar experiences with an M6. My M4-P for me was a symbol of reliability and durability in a time where seemingly very few other technical devices were built to last longer than two or

three years.

 

From what I've read on this forum and now from what I've seen myself I'm beginning to wonder if Leica will eventually be able to build a digital camera which is like that. Right now, I have my doubts...

[jaapv]

So the shutter needs a certain level of power for it to function properly. OK- so what?

This can hardly be seen as "normal use"so I don't think it is an issue at all.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[sfokevin]

I would say you are the "fault" for abusing the camera in a way it was not really designed for...

[Vieri]

So the shutter needs a certain level of power for it to function properly. OK- so what?

This can hardly be seen as "normal use"so I don't think it is an issue at all.

 

I would say you are the "fault" for abusing the camera in a way it was not really designed for...

 

Well - IMHO, the camera should work fine as much as the battery let's it power up and operate. If the shutter needs a minimal amount of power to work, once the battery reaches that minimum the camera should stop working and letting you take pictures (or try to), and issue a warning "battery empty" or something like this. This would be much more acceptable to me than what happened to the OP - and I am pretty sure it's trivial to implement as well

[Bill W]

My question would be what does the manual say about this situation. It sounds like the camera has drained the batteries sufficiently that the shutter would "fault" if there is not enough left in them to power the shutter release an re-cock. Turning off the power will allow the batteries to regain enough to power another round of shooting but "Is this wise to do to any camera?" It sounds like the camera is performing like it should. Be careful out there.

[caparobertsan]

Well, I suggest downgrade of camera. Version 1. which is M8.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Note that the "shutter fault"which the OP achieved by draining the battery was recoverable with a fresh battery. A shutter fault in the M8 meant a trip to the service center.

 

scott

[dpattinson]

My M8 dies pretty predictably if I use C mode when the battery is low - despite not actually shooting continuously but instead manually firing the shutter twice in quick succession.

 

I expect that this scenario is now slightly more elegantly handled in the M8.2 by at least displaying an error message. It would probably be better if there was a warning of some kind (audible maybe) that the battery is reaching a critical level.

 

What I'd love is a backup battery in my grip - and a warning when that battery starts being used. That way I can time battery replacement a little better (and even use a disposable lithium cell in extremis - how convenient). Currently you would have to change batteries every time it hits one bar - which cuts into your battery life quite a bit.

[pascal_meheut]

Maybe Leica should issue a warning: "when the battery indicators says it's low and if you intend to continue to shoot, please recharge it or change it for a fully recharged one".

 

Something in the spirit of "do not put a cat in the microwave oven to dry it". Or "Cruise-control does not mean that you can leave the wheel of your RV, take a nap in the back of it and expect it to cruise the highway smoothly at 65 mph by itself".

[dpattinson]

Maybe Leica should issue a warning: "when the battery indicators says it's low and if you intend to continue to shoot, please recharge it or change it for a fully recharged one".

 

Something in the spirit of "do not put a cat in the microwave oven to dry it". Or "Cruise-control does not mean that you can leave the wheel of your RV, take a nap in the back of it and expect it to cruise the highway smoothly at 65 mph by itself".

 

..or maybe a battery life indicator that is more use than a cruise-control/speedometer that says you're traveling at 65mph when you're actually traveling at 100mph... which is possibly a more accurate analogy

[chris_tribble]

Sorry - little sympathy on this one. The M8 shutter is there to let you take photographs. I'm off to put a puppy in the spin drier...

[nhabedi]

Well, it's nice to see that in a few hours almost a dozen forum members stepped up to defend Leica. That's my usual instinct as well when I see something that sounds like an unfounded complaint. So, let me make some things clear:

 

• This is my first digital camera. I've been hesitating for quite some time before I eventually bought one. I'm otherwise happy with it, I've never considered to buy any other digital camera and I still can't imagine to buy anything else. (Still, I'm wondering if I had reported something like this about a EOS-1D on a Canon forum if ten persons had cried "abuse" there.)
   
  
• I've loved Leicas since I bought my M4-P a long time ago. I also love my wife and my daughter, but if they do something I don't concur with, I tell them. Likewise, my love for Leica is not big or blind enough to just ignore issues I see.
   
  
• If the battery level is too low for the camera to work properly, it should say so or shut down. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with it saying that it has "shutter faults" when it should say "battery low" or just shut down. I have an even bigger problem with it recocking half a dozen times and behaving like mad instead!
   
  
• Besides, after the first "shutter fault" the battery level was still high enough to repeat the same procedure several times, i.e. it was still high enough for at least 50 shots.
   
  
• I can't really see how what I did is "abuse". Isn't that what continuous mode is for? Imagine you're in the middle of some action, frantically shooting, and the buffer is full. You're watching through the viewfinder waiting for the camera to get ready again, then you shoot again. Where's the abuse? Do you guys check the battery meter each time before you take a photo? Maybe I've used cameras without batteries for too long...
  

 

Maybe Leica should just drop the continuous mode altogether (I don't need it) or clearly state in the manual that it is only safe to use if the battery is at 50 percent or higher.

[jaapv]

Well - IMHO, the camera should work fine as much as the battery let's it power up and operate. If the shutter needs a minimal amount of power to work, once the battery reaches that minimum the camera should stop working and letting you take pictures (or try to), and issue a warning "battery empty" or something like this. This would be much more acceptable to me than what happened to the OP - and I am pretty sure it's trivial to implement as well

It is quite normal for a battery in general to have enough power for normal use and to drop the voltage sufficiently to caue malfunction when drained heavily in that state -on any piece of equipment.

[nhabedi]

It is quite normal for a battery in general to have enough power for normal use and to drop the voltage sufficiently to caue malfunction when drained heavily in that state -on any piece of equipment.

 

So, you're saying there simply is no better way to handle this? I doubt that, but I'm prepared to stand corrected. Is someone reading this thread who can compare with a Canon or Nikon of the same price range? Does your camera start to behave erratically if you continue to use it when the battery is low?

[tashley]

Sorry - little sympathy on this one. The M8 shutter is there to let you take photographs. I'm off to put a puppy in the spin drier...

 

ROFL:D :D

[delander †]

So, you're saying there simply is no better way to handle this? I doubt that, but I'm prepared to stand corrected. Is someone reading this thread who can compare with a Canon or Nikon of the same price range? Does your camera start to behave erratically if you continue to use it when the battery is low?

 

Of course there is. None of my DSLRs have ever done this. Canon/Nikon would never market a camera doing this it would be laughable.

 

IF the battery cant fire the shutter properly, however that situation has been reached the camera should simply provide a warning about low battery and cease to function.

 

Jeff

[vanhulsenbeek]

Of course there is. None of my DSLRs have ever done this. Canon/Nikon would never market a camera doing this it would be laughable.

 

IF the battery cant fire the shutter properly, however that situation has been reached the camera should simply provide a warning about low battery and cease to function.

 

Jeff

 

Agreed. Even the simplest fool-proof P&S has, next to a battery counter, a battery-low warning.

For the M8, an oversight that should be corrected in Firmware.

 

But then, Leica's are not fool-proof because their owners are not supposed to be fools

[wattsy]

[*]I can't really see how what I did is "abuse". Isn't that what continuous mode is for? Imagine you're in the middle of some action, frantically shooting, and the buffer is full. You're watching through the viewfinder waiting for the camera to get ready again, then you shoot again. Where's the abuse? Do you guys check the battery meter each time before you take a photo? Maybe I've used cameras without batteries for too long...

.

 

Your original point is a fair observation. If reproducible every time, what you describe is clearly an issue, albeit one that is hardly a show-stopper. I have no idea why the usual Leica 'fanboys' have to be so predictably tiresome. Rather than just acknowledge that there might be a (minor) issue they always feel obliged to chip in with the usual "this is perfectly normal - you are clearly an idiot for doubting the great god Leica" bollocks.

[farnz]

Nhabedi,

 

I'm sorry to hear that your new M8.2 isn't behaving as you hoped it would but you are operating it at its extreme limits. This is not a criticism of you and it is not an apology on behalf of Leica, it's facing facts.

 

Your battery capacity is already low and then you have applied more load by continuing to operate the shutter so you are putting the battery under maximum strain. It appears to me that at the point where you're getting the "Shutter Fail" error message there is enough battery capacity to fire the shutter, say, but not enough to recock, hence the shutter operation can't complete and the M8.2's microprocessor diagnoses this as a shutter fault instead of a battery fault (or "low battery").

 

You say that the fix is to turn the camera off and on (not needing to remove the battery as you would in a full lock-up), which suggests to me that your M8.2 re-initialises its software (as all electronic equipment does at start-up) and the shutter operation is reset, clearing the incorrectly reported fault. And off you go again.

 

It would perhaps be better if the error message was 'battery low' rather than 'shutter fault' but that would depend on your M8.2 accurately understanding how much capacity its battery has left, which is not possible unfortunately. (I have bored members at length on this topic before so I'll try to be brief.) The only way to determine any battery's capacity is to do a discharge test, which involves connecting a known resistance across the battery's terminals and measuring the voltage across them until the current supplied by the battery starts to fall away sharply when the voltage will also drop sharply. This would produce a milliamp-hour result that would indicate the percentage of residual battery capacity. (Of course, doing this drains some of the capacity, which in itself creates an inaccuracy.)

 

But it's not practical for a camera - or most other electronic equipment - to do a battery discharge test while in use so the mechanism that's used is to monitor and compare the voltage drop at the terminals in real time and make an assumption of how much battery capacity is left but it is not accurate because the battery is not being discharged through a known resistance. This is your M8.2's battery indicator and, understandably, it is not particularly accurate.

 

There's not a lot that you or Leica can do to improve this area, other than by 'managing' it, but at least you can be certain that your shutter is not faulty and providing you don't overstretch your M8.2 by heavily loading a low battery you shouldn't see the same error message again. If you do, pop in a fresh battery and fire away.

 

Pete.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[delander †]

Nhabedi,

 

There's not a lot that you or Leica can do to improve this area, other than by 'managing' it, but at least you can be certain that your shutter is not faulty and providing you don't overstretch your M8.2 by heavily loading a low battery you shouldn't see the same error message again. If you do, pop in a fresh battery and fire away.

 

Pete.

 

Hi Pete,

 

But Canon/Nikon etc do manage to handle this in a much better way.

 

Jeff