M8.2 shutter faults

[jaapv]

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Maybe Leica should just drop the continuous mode altogether (I don't need it) or clearly state in the manual that it is only safe to use if the battery is at 50 percent or higher.

 

At one point of time Volvo added to their manual for the USA (for legal reasons) "In case of encountering an obstacle operate brake pedal"

[farnz]

Hi Pete,

 

But Canon/Nikon etc do manage to handle this in a much better way.

 

Jeff

Jeff,

 

I don't own Canon or Nikon cameras so I have to guess that they report "Low Battery" rather than 'shutter fault', and if so it may be that they have their tolerances set lower to ensure that it reports that way.

 

I agree with you and Leica may be able to alter the reported error message to suit through a firmware upgrade, which alters the tolerance at which "Low battery" is reported.

 

Pete.

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[dcoombs]

At one point of time Volvo added to their manual for the USA (for legal reasons) "In case of encountering an obstacle operate brake pedal"

 

Hah! And I'll bet a lot of people ignored that advice, too!

[delander †]

Jeff,

 

I don't own Canon or Nikon cameras …

Pete.

 

Hi Pete,

 

I'm not criticising youpersonally but as a general observation some people on this M8 forum dont have experience of cameras from other makers and assume that what happens with the M8 happens with other cameras too and that Leica has automatically, because they are Leica, come up with the best solution.

 

I like the simplicity of the M8 but there is a difference between simplicity and a primitive implementation of features.

 

Jeff

[nhabedi]

At one point of time Volvo added to their manual for the USA (for legal reasons) "In case of encountering an obstacle operate brake pedal"

 

Yes, that's kind of funny, but it's not the proper analogy. It's more like this:

 

If my car is low on fuel, it shows a warning light. Older cars didn't have such a light but they had some kind of meter showing you how much fuel was left approximately. Both ways are fine with me. If I decide to continue driving, that's my fault and I have to live with the consequences.

 

However, the "Leica M8 way" of dealing with low fuel seems to be to start strange actions of the windscreen wipers and to show a "brake failure" warning on the car's dashboard. That doesn't look like an optimal solution to me...

[jaapv]

Yes- and when you get this fuel low warning, do you try and eke out the rest until you reach a filling station, or do you blast on at 200 Kph and grind to a standstill in a few kilometers?

However, I agree "low battery" and a flshing in the VF would be more appropriate. It is, in general, wise to change the battery at one bar.

Btw, my former Canon 20D was no different is crashing on a low batery

[farnz]

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I'm not criticising youpersonally but as a general observation some people on this M8 forum dont have experience of cameras from other makers

No criticism taken personally, Jeff.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I own cameras from other manufacturers, just not Nikon or Canon so far. I try to speak about the engineering and make suggestions or explicit assumptions where I don't know for sure.

 

As far as Leica coming up with the best solution because they are Leica I would like to think this was true but the pragmatist in me tells me it isn't. Over many decades Leica has been an exceptionally innovative and creative company and has led the field in a number of areas but I don't see how it can compete technologically in the current digital era with the large companies who have such enormous R&D budgets. Having said that I think Leica has punched above its weight in a number of areas and deserves kudos for doing that.

 

Sorry for the sidetrack - back on topic.

 

Pete.

[graeme_hutton]

My M8 'classic' is useless as well. I find that if I point it at uninteresting subjects it takes uninteresting photographs - how useless is that?

 

It cost a fortune too.....

[scott kirkpatrick]

Let's try to be constructive here. I think the OP has produced a "corner condition" that Leica's engineers might not have even wanted to think about. (Certainly using the expensive shutter instead of the always-on state to drain a battery for calibration purposes feels to me a bit like putting the puppy into the dryer...)

 

I've sent the following note to Leica's QC group:

 

 

 

 

There's a thread on the LUF that I wish you would take a look at: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/68365-m8-2-shutter-faults.html

 

The thread has been clouded by people making jokes, and the problem may not be a serious one, but the reputation of the M8.2 could be affected by what seems to be an imprecise error message.

 

The person posting wanted to drain his battery and recharge it to get accurate battery monitoring. He was not willing to wait the 4-5 hours that it may take to drain the battery by leaving the display on setting the timeout to OFF, so he drained the battery by repeatedly firing the shutter in C-mode. Eventually the battery got low enough that the shutter will fire but does not have enough energy to recock. This is indicated by the "Shutter Fault" error message on the lcd screen, although the problem is really that the battery was too low for the shot to be taken. With firmware 2.0, switching the camera off and replacing the battery with one that is fully charge clears the problem. I presume the first thing that happens after changing the the battery is that the shutter cocks itself to be ready to continue, but the description provided doesn't say if that is the case.

 

I wouldn't try this in an M8, since there when the shutter gets stuck in the fired state, (it happened to me once with a somewhat low battery), a second error message appears: "Drive Blocked" and it was necessary to take it to Leica service to have them recock the shutter. Just inserting a fresh battery didn't fix it on the M8. With the new firmware, will an M8 recock itself when this situation arises?

 

I suggest that a better error message would be "Shutter not re-cocked" , but personally, I would prefer to be allowed to shoot right up to the last possible shot rather than have to set a conservative limit in which I get an explicit "Battery too low to shoot with" message like the "Battery too low for cleaning" message that warns you not to open the shutter when it might close soon.

 

regards,

 

scott

[jaapv]

Scott, reading your post, it seems to me that this effect on the M8.2 has been deliberately introduced to prevent the problem you had with your M8. The only thing less elegant in that case is the text of the error message.

[Ronazle]

Nhabedi, Thanks for the heads up and info. Ignore the put-down comments, it is their only life. ron

[nhabedi]

It is, in general, wise to change the battery at one bar.

 

That seems to be the conclusion of this thread.

 

However, the manual advises that the battery "only reaches full capacity after it has been fully charged and discharged again 2 or 3 times." That was the only reason I went through this procedure.

[nhabedi]

Certainly using the expensive shutter instead of the always-on state to drain a battery for calibration purposes feels to me a bit like putting the puppy into the dryer...

 

Again, I must be spoiled by having used an analog Leica for years. With my M4-P it never occured to me that I should go easy on my precious shutter.

 

I've sent the following note to Leica's QC group

 

Thanks for doing that. I had planned to email them as well, but you beat me to it.

 

Eventually the battery got low enough that the shutter will fire but does not have enough energy to recock.

 

I'm not sure if that's an accurate description. The battery seemingly had enough power to recock the shutter several times in a row without a chance for me to interrupt the camera. Maybe it didn't recock completely and tried again in vain, though, but it sounded as if there were four or five consecutive recocks.

[jaapv]

That seems to be the conclusion of this thread.

 

However, the manual advises that the battery "only reaches full capacity after it has been fully charged and discharged again 2 or 3 times." That was the only reason I went through this procedure.

Yes, that has been in the manual since the beginning. It has been disputed by some experts on this forum, however.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Scott, reading your post, it seems to me that this effect on the M8.2 has been deliberately introduced to prevent the problem you had with your M8. The only thing less elegant in that case is the text of the error message.

 

Previously, there have been two problems, multiple attempted recocks, which probably means that it didn't quite try hard enough to latch the shutter in the ready position, and "Drive blocked." Now with the M8u and M8.2, they have separated out the stages of the shutter action and probably made the firmware more robust. But the error messages available are the same as before. I never had the multiple recock problem, so I don't know if that one went away with a fresh battery -- anyone remember?

 

@nhabedi -- there's almost nothing to break in an all-manual film M except the shutter and the rangefinder. My M2 shutter started sticking and producing partially exposed frames (after 25 years). And this shutter has a rapid motor rewind, so it is definitely the weakest link in the camera. Incidentally, you can read the temperature inside the camera from the MakerNotes part of the EXIF in a DNG file with CornerFix (free download, just use Google to find it). I would bet that the temperature increases quite rapidly with your constant shutter firing method, another reason to avoid it.

 

Zeroing your batteries is a sensible idea. I do it by setting "Auto Power Off" to OFF in the menu and leaving the camera alone. With a fully charged battery the camera will switch itself off in 4-5 hours. With a mostly discharged battery, it may take less than an hour.

 

scott

[tomasis7]

Yes, that has been in the manual since the beginning. It has been disputed by some experts on this forum, however.

 

Im the expert. nhabedi's camera is broken. it needs to send to Solms, lol

[johnboy]

The problem with error reporting in microcontroller systems is assigning priority to the fault. It is possible that a low battery warning is generated, but the shutter fault is displayed first, blocking out the low battery warning. If there is no priority then each fault would be displayed rapidly after each other leaving the last fault in the list to be left on the screen. I have has this problem with sotware controlled machinery myself. Leica don't have the resources to do as much beta testing as Canon or Nikon, so this one may have slipped through.

[farnz]

Im the expert. nhabedi's camera is broken. it needs to send to Solms, lol

Tomasis,

 

Expert? Are you joking about Nhabedi's camera needing to be returned to Solms and, if not, what's your reason for saying so?

 

Pete.

[Shootist]

Tomasis,

 

Expert? Are you joking about Nhabedi's camera needing to be returned to Solms and, if not, what's your reason for saying so?

 

Pete.

 

Pete just pay no attention to that poster.

I have put him on my ignore list because he has not had a single thing to add to any post. Kind of a semi troll.

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[farnz]

Pete just pay no attention to that poster.

I have put him on my ignore list because he has not had a single thing to add to any post. Kind of a semi troll.

Thanks for the heads up, Ed. I thought it was mischievous but I was concerned that the OP might take him at face value and spend time and money needlessly sending his camera back to Solms.

 

Pete.