terrycioni Posted July 15, 2008 Share #261 Posted July 15, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Doesn't take much to get one's knickers in a knot .......... Yea it sorta kills the used Leica market, not sure if I would be happy buying a camera that has been used to take photos of car parks and happy snaps of fur balls ............... could be viral in terms of osmosis Terry you could be the moderator:D ... enter "The fff...... fffff.ader" at a forum near you!! Shrug.....whatever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 Hi terrycioni, Take a look here Should Leica Abandon The M8?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
barjohn Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share #262 Posted July 16, 2008 Boy, talking about going off track and personal attacks, it is shameful that so many forum members can't just provide a cogent argument for their point of view or disagreements but instead constantly resort to name calling or questioning someone's expertise without presenting their own bona fides. Just to answer the attacks on my knowledge or expertise, I have been the president of a multi-million dollar software company, I have been the head of marketing for a computer manufacturer, I have been the CIO and corporate counsel for another medium size company and I am currently in charge of R&D for the U.S. Navy in the area of measurement science. I have direct experience with product marketing, sales, product development and product life cycle management. When attacking my statements or credentials you should have at least the same experience or better to back up your statements or I suggest you use some other point of attack (like perhaps a sound logical argument). Note that I started this post with a question and I presented some rationale for my answer. All that was required was to answer the question and present your own rationale for your answer. Agreement or disagreement was not a requisite to contributing nor was ownership of an M8. While that latter is nice to use in support of an argument, it would be foolish to ignore potential new customers and their opinions. A company is always trying to understand the obstacles to entry that must be overcome to sell a product. The better one understands why someone isn't jumping in an buying the better the company is put in a position to change its product or advertising to overcome those obstacles. I have watched Leica struggle with the M8 and while I have no inside information, the firing of Mr. Lee and the subsequent disarray helped to convince me that Leica was suffering from a very common business malady. It is the reason that GM created a Saturn division and manufactured it in a new plant. I saw many of the same issues when I worked for Control Data Corp. Anyone interested in understanding this phenomenon should take an executive training class at UT Austin. I have put my money where my mouth is by selling the M8 at a loss. I will observe the market for M8s and used M8s for a while and see if I am right or wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrycioni Posted July 16, 2008 Share #263 Posted July 16, 2008 barjohn, impressive credentials and I say that with respect. For the record I have no argument with the thread whatsoever. Where it comes off the rails is the sense of entitlement held by some that they can stand back and chuck spit balls, engage in ad hominen attacks (when they can no longer attack the camera they attack the people who own and use the M8). Often these same people have not experienced the camera or for that made the purchase commitment, all long saying I or others are being defensive Leica "fan boys' when we speak up. They often are unmitigated in their apparent god given right of free speech without any sense of responsibility or reason. I have learned a great deal from this thread not all good. 1. M8 owners are rich self indulgent old farts. 2. None us are capable photographers. 3. I am apparently dying (aren't we all). 4. I don't know a damn thing, and I could on. This all comes from the fact I chose to extend my 40 year involvement with Leica by purchasing the M8. I want to be clear the M8 is not not perfect, but it is a good DRF. Hopefully the next generation will be that much better. I reflect now, In early 2000 I bought a Nikon D1 for a whopping $6900CDN it was a leap forward for pro DSLRs and ahead of it's time, 2.7 MP. It had a horrible horrible banding problem which I had to twist their arm to fix - but they did after much pushing and shoving as they were not openly admitting to the problem - I still have all the paperwork, etc. There was a plethora of software out there to solve many of the tech issues of the D1 and we used them all to overcome it's shortcomings. I loved the D1 at the time... and IT was the only game in town. Now we have the D3 a techno marvel DSLR. Some people still covet their D1/D1X bodies as will some people covet the M8 when we are fluttering over the M9 and so on. The question I have is simple. Does Leica have the ongoing resources to stay in the DRF game with it's current structure? That is a question you can more likely answer than I can. Best Regards. Terry. PS. I am sticking to my original decision and keeping both M8s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedisdl Posted July 16, 2008 Share #264 Posted July 16, 2008 I recently decided to buy the new Nikon D700 which is very similiar to its D3. I'd like a DSLR for longer lenses and currently use the D200 with Nikon's 18-200 VR lens. I have been trying to decide on the best lenses to use with the D700 and have been testing various lenses on the D3 as a surrogate for the D700. The Nikon 35 f2 and 50 f1.4 can't produce an image anywhere near as good as on my M8 (with the 24 f2.8 or 28 f2) lenses. I have't tried the very large and heavy Nikon zooms (e.g. 24-70 f2.8) but have tried other lighter zooms (e.g. Tamron 28-300 VC and a Nikon zoom). I've been very surprised that the "older" M8 technology with Leica glass still outperforms newer competitive technology. I'm still trying other zooms - e.g. Nikon's 24-120 VR (not in stock to try yet). While it's true that Leica will have difficulty keeping up with competition, they did do a great job creating the M8 - still outstanding IQ relatiev to the competition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted July 16, 2008 Share #265 Posted July 16, 2008 Shrug.....whatever. Terry, you insist on speaking to imants with some earnestness, which is a mistake. If you want to push him, try a few remarks about what idle wankers the Brits are, lying around their nanny state making derivative art; or tweak him about him thinking Holga pictures automatically make "fine art." I can wind him up on a moment's notice, but you've never even bothered to learn. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share #266 Posted July 16, 2008 Jedisdl, At lower ISOs I would agree that Leica produces excellent images and I doubt that many of us could tell the difference if we were presented printed images from the M8 and the D3 with the equivalent focal length (i.e. adjusting for the cropping factor) high quality prime lenses. But once the ISo goes above 1200 the difference starts to be more pronounced and at 3200 and above even an amateur could tell the difference. To my eye, the M8 tends to have difficulty with skin tones which I attribute to the higher sensitivity to IR that the filter just can't quite compensate for. There is a reddish/orangish cast to caucasian skins that does not look like what I see when I look at the subject of the image. Of course this varies with different subjects. I have tried various presets and curves such as those produced by Jamie and while they help, they are still not quite right. CI does produce a slightly better image but it just doesn't compare to LR for ease of use and many other factors. By the way, before someone attacks me on this post, I don't own a D3 and I could be completely wrong. My comments are based on my looking at images shot with the D3 at high ISO and comparing to what I know from experience the M8 produces. P.S. Terry, thanks for the compliment. I was really hoping to spur out of the box thinking with this thread, not create a forum for personal attacks be they on credentials or photographic skills. I really look up to the photographic skills of some of the pros on this forum such as Sean Reid and Guy (that recently dropped out). These are the two whose work I have looked at with admiration. I also like that when Sean ventures an opinion it is backed with facts or sound logical reasoning. More posts like his or Mark Norton's (whom I don't always agree with but I have high respect for) would lead to better understanding and knowledge and both improvements in the photographer's skills and in better cameras by the manufacturers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted July 16, 2008 Share #267 Posted July 16, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Some of the needed improvements in the M9 are mechanical, and that's where there may be some serious disagreements. But traditionalists (and Leica) should understand that a sophisticated use of software should allow a user to turn off most of the improvements, leaving a fairly standard M3-style machine. I would not even be against an option that would permit you to turn off the LCD. How about this for electronic frame lines: the lines are projected based on the lens codes, but then, beneath the bottom frame-line, there's a group of small figures, that replicate the distance scale on the individual lenses. Using a dial like that on the latest Nikons, users could select the distance, and the frame lines would then be adjusted to be precisely accurate. And all of this could be turned off, of course. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted July 16, 2008 Share #268 Posted July 16, 2008 By the way, before someone attacks me on this post, I don't own a D3 and I could be completely wrong. My comments are based on my looking at images shot with the D3 at high ISO and comparing to what I know from experience the M8 produces. I think you are correct, and I have both an M8 and a D3. Still, the M8 (perhaps because of the lenses) has a different "look" than the D3. I'm tempted to get one of the Zeiss ZF lenses for Nikon and trying it, to see if the results are more Leica-like. I'd like a Leica-like look. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrycioni Posted July 16, 2008 Share #269 Posted July 16, 2008 Terry, you insist on speaking to imants with some earnestness, which is a mistake. If you want to push him, try a few remarks about what idle wankers the Brits are, lying around their nanny state making derivative art; or tweak him about him thinking Holga pictures automatically make "fine art." I can wind him up on a moment's notice, but you've never even bothered to learn. JC Clever. I guess I am a slow learner! I am happy you however can wind him up, I will leave that to your more capable hands. As for what I bother to learn or not - I hope you will respect that I will choose what it is I 'bother to learn' without comment or advice to that fact. Thanks for the advice though. Best Regards. Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share #270 Posted July 16, 2008 jrc, That is the kind of thinking I was hoping this thread would inspire. And we all know, especially if we subscribe to Sean's site that different lenses paint the image differently. Whether one is better than an other is very subjective once things like distortion (barrel, pin, etc.) and CA are removed from the equation. High contrast, very sharp or soft are all subjective qualities that each person selects based on the subject matter and the desired emotional impact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted July 16, 2008 Share #271 Posted July 16, 2008 Terry, you insist on speaking to imants with some earnestness, which is a mistake. If you want to push him, try a few remarks about what idle wankers the Brits are, lying around their nanny state making derivative art; or tweak him about him thinking Holga pictures automatically make "fine art." I can wind him up on a moment's notice, but you've never even bothered to learn Hi jrc I am sure the Brits will thank you for the insult and somewhat racial slur..............by the way I am not British, so why insult them?. Don't have a Holga but the kids sure love them along with the old Polaroids, automatic art, probably not but within the right context a great art medium. ...... patiently waiting for a windup, it's pretty quiet in the ward since me mate Mick got sent back to the sheep station at Bullamakenka. He always had a way with them Lucky Ju Ju - Toy Camera Photo Show Opens in August! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/57418-should-leica-abandon-the-m8/?do=findComment&comment=605570'>More sharing options...
hamey Posted July 16, 2008 Share #272 Posted July 16, 2008 Should Leica abandon the M8, frankly I couldn't care less. Yesterday I played with one at Camera lane, took a few shots. And I was glad to hand it back. I am a practical man, simply not for me but definitely for Leica M romantics. Cheers. Ken Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBA Posted July 16, 2008 Share #273 Posted July 16, 2008 Interesting. What characterizes a "Leica M romantic"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted July 16, 2008 Share #274 Posted July 16, 2008 ............... a man with bushy eyebrows and deep furrows in his forehead eating free range organically grown beef, perhaps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicagator Posted July 16, 2008 Share #275 Posted July 16, 2008 Always interesting how people reveal their unfortunate childhood and lack of decency by their chosen words. But what I really do not understand is why people like "Ridder C" think it is worthwile to spend time on forums like this with the mere intention of insulting/provoking others or expressing thoughts that are nothing but childish bullsh**. The only reason for this sad behaviour can be that they do not have a life... I am glad that we at least share an interest ...! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_reinierv Posted July 16, 2008 Share #276 Posted July 16, 2008 I stunned a few pro's with M8 image quality (just stick to 160iso) even recently. Just too bad it has so many design flaws (like slow write speed, no SDHC support, sudden deaths, selftimer switch to name a few) Trying to match it with modern compacts is not a valid comparission, due to the smaller sensors. You will not be able to make a Dx or Fx sensor based with the same size as a G9 and still be able to change lenses. And the lens is the heart of the Leica camera, that's is already the case since the beginning of the M. Would love to have a new sensor with less noise and the flaws resolved...when that's done the M series has still a long life ahead. There is a market for compact camera's that provide, better than, DSLR results. And I realy hope (idle, I know ) they respect my investment with a price-worth sensor upgrade program for the M8 Leica must become aware that in the modern times you can not bring the next model after more than a decade... I'm really curious what they will present at the kina, rumours says they have a larger than usual stand reserved.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 16, 2008 Share #277 Posted July 16, 2008 I am a practical man, simply not for me but definitely for Leica M romantics I like to think that I'm a practical man too, and not a Leica M romantic, but I enjoy using the M8 more than any camera I've ever used before. And the photographs are gorgeous - technically at least, if not artistically <grin>. The only experience that comes close was when I used my first M - a Leica M2 - for the first time. That was a revalation, so was the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted July 16, 2008 Share #278 Posted July 16, 2008 ...The Nikon 35 f2 and 50 f1.4 can't produce an image anywhere near as good as on my M8 (with the 24 f2.8 or 28 f2) lenses. I did a series of personal test with the same lenses/camera including a Zeiss ZF 35 f2 and the 35cron ASPH in the bunch, and personally, I have to disagree. I would probably buy the D3/D700 tomorrow If had the money,,, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted July 16, 2008 Share #279 Posted July 16, 2008 I did a series of personal test with the same lenses/camera including a Zeiss ZF 35 f2 and the 35cron ASPH in the bunch, and personally, I have to disagree.I would probably buy the D3/D700 tomorrow If had the money,,, Obviously just to have a DSLR beside my M8. I second what John said about D3 and M8 even if he doesn't have one. The point is spot on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted July 16, 2008 Share #280 Posted July 16, 2008 I did a series of personal test with the same lenses/camera including a Zeiss ZF 35 f2 and the 35cron ASPH in the bunch, and personally, I have to disagree.I would probably buy the D3/D700 tomorrow If had the money,,, Maurizio, even if I didn't run a series of formal tests I do own and use for my work both the D3 and the D300, together with the M8 and film Ms as well. While Leica lenses (and M lenses in general) are great, and probably "better" (whatever that means for each of us, of course) than the Nikkors, if we examine the overall combination Nikon camera + Nikon lens vs Leica M8 + Leica lenses I don't find the Nikkors to be lacking in the comparison. The D3's sensor, IMO, works much better than the Kodak sensor in the M8 on all levels except, perhaps, sharpness; colors are better (the M8's skin tones' accuracy lacks to say the least), noise is so much better is not even funny; if you consider the D300, even sharpness is in the same ballpark (still the M8 is sharper though). I don't agree with people saying that the M8's files look better than everything else, though I don't agree with people saying the M8 is rubbish. The M8 is a great camera for what is designed for, as is the D3 & the D300. Is the M8 the best camera ever? Is is perfect? No, IMHO. Can it be improved? Definitely. Will ti be improved? ...I surely hope so, but the answer only Leica knows Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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