Should Leica Abandon The M8?

[AlanG]

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In reference to the Capa film being ruined in the lab - the new kid who processed Capa's film of the beach landing was Larry Burrows, working in the London Time-Life darkroom. And he never backed away from that fact.

 

I know this is a popular view but it is my understanding that someone else ruined the film.

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[rob_x2004]

Make of it what you will from John Morris here.

 

Braddy, our lab chief, gave the film to young Dennis Banks to develop. Photographer Hans Wild looked at it wet and called up to me to say that the 35-millimeter, though grainy, looked "fabulous!" I replied, "We need contacts - rush, rush, rush!" Again I phoned Butler through the AP switchboard, but he could only bellow, "When do I get pictures?" Brandt's wirephoto of troops landing apparently unopposed had scarcely satisfied the West's desperate need to believe in the actuality of invasion. A few minutes later Dennis came bounding up the stairs and into my office, sobbing. "They're ruined! Ruined! Capa's films are all ruined!" Incredulous, I rushed down to the darkroom with him, where he explained that he had hung the films, as usual, in the wooden locker that served as a drying cabinet, heated by a coil on the floor. Because of my order to rush, he had closed the doors. Without ventilation the emulsion had melted.

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[lxlim]

And if the LCD is on an articulated arm or could be flipped up at a 90 deg angle you can use it to shoot at waist level or below or shoot holding the camera over head which can be very useful.

 

Yes to that. But many others will rightly claim that it spoils the overall shape and ergonomics. Perhaps an external battery powered monitor may be a better choice.

[jrc]

Not to be overly obtuse, but did anyone really expect Leica to get it perfect the first go around with a DRF? <big snip> Personally, I will support them along the way by continuing to buy each new generation of DRF as I still consider the Leica an optimal tool for discretionary street photography.

 

I don't think there will be several generations if they don't do it better. I think they've got one more chance. They might not even have that.

 

You might not expect a perfect camera the first time around, but you have to remember that Leica had a lot of other digital cameras, both SLRs and P&S, to look at, while they were designing the M8 -- and they still got some pretty elementary stuff wrong. (And to be fair, some things right.)

 

One thing that Leica traditionalists should consider is that when Leicas first appeared, they were on the cutting edge of hand-camera technology. People bought them because they were the best thing available, not because the looked good with the Jag. Leica later lost that edge completely, but tried to hold on, as a business, by appealing to tradition. When they finally tried to get the edge back, the traditionalists hunted them down and killed them (M5.)

 

Now, their backs are truly to the wall. I think the M9 will again have to be a hand camera with cutting edge technology, like the early Leicas were, or the company is toast. There is distinctly a market for a small fast handy camera, even at a stiff price, if it provides superb images gained through great lenses and a great sensor at good high ISOs. Leica can have that market it it wants it, but it has to stop dicking around with M3-think. The M3 is an artifact of the past; if antiquarians like it, that's fine. But the rest of us, who are more concerned with image than style, should get on with it.

 

I would like them to preserve the form (size) of the body; higher ISO response; more accurate, probably electronic rangefinder lines, but with the same kind of rangefinder function where you can see a good area around the frame; focus confirm or autofocus; some sensor cleaning capability; and get rid of the limited-function cutesy stuff like the take-off bottom plate and the round LCD, and replace these things with seriously functional designs. It's not impossible - the G9 has most of this, it's much smaller than the Leica, and even has to house the (zoom) lens in the body.

 

JC

[lct]

...The M3 is an artifact of the past; if antiquarians like it, that's fine... But the rest of us, who are more concerned with image than style, should get on with it. I would like... focus confirm or autofocus...

The M3 does not need blinking lights or autofocus (what for? with what lenses?) to be more accurate than any other M if you ask me.

[jaapv]

The M3 does not need blinking lights or autofocus (what for? with what lenses?) to be more accurate than any other M if you ask me.

At the cost of having a 50 mm frame as the widest angle....

[lct]

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It's not me who said that the M3 is an 'artifact of the past' but all 0.85x and 0.72x Ms are more accurate than the M8 so far.

[hankg]

Bringing the M into the 21st century has nothing to do with macro, tilt shift, long lenses or anything else that you should be using a DSLR for.

 

The point of the M is a responsive small discreet available light camera.

 

There is lots technology can do to transparently advance that mission like use LCD technology so you could have one frame set at a time that accurately adjusts for focus distance. That would make for a simpler, less cluttered and more accurate finder.

 

Better high ISO and vibration reduction in body to extend available light capability. The M is not meant to be used on a tripod and hand holding testing has shown you lose fine detail at speeds as high as 1/250.

 

Get the ISO and EV functions out of the LCD menu and onto analogue controls.

 

Make it QUIET even if it means a manual winder.

 

Improve the machining on the shutter release which is the worst release of any M.

 

Provide a means for the user to profile lenses for focus calibration and lens cast.

 

Get a bigger buffer so the camera doesn't lock up while you are in the groove following rapid moving action.

 

There is nothing wrong with having focus confirmation but resources are limited and I don't think Leica can afford to allocate resources to something that will add little to the M mount.

 

You should get a DSLR is a straw man argument. The M8 is a long way from what a simple, rugged and quiet DRF should be. It certainly is not as refined and innovative as the film M3 was at it's release.

[lct]

Yes and enlarge the window of the viewfinder, a la Epson, and/ lengthen the base length of the rangefinder, a la Zeiss, so that we don't need a magnifier to focus 75/1.4 and 90/2 lenses anymore, also a possible 50/0.95 if any.

[Amoment]

How about having the ability to load a film?

 

If I don't capture the image that I want, I blame myself, not the camera. But then I am a bit naive.

 

Stuart

[MP3]

And yes another guy who knows everything about what camera can be built, how long and how much it would cost to design it, how easy it would be to market it...

 

I'm quite impressed

 

Why don't you raise a few tength of millions bucks and create a company to implement it? Sure sounds easy when we read you here.

As Michael Tyler pointed out, one manufacturer already tried this route, Olympus. Not been a huge success so far.

 

Avoid to mention it in your business plan when you meet investors

 

x 2

[bill]

All in all, it is clear why the M8 is not a camera you would buy. But I still think you would take very good photographs with it all the same

 

Thanks Jaap, both for the compliment and for getting my point.

 

I've made no secret of the fact that since the M8 came out I have actually "regressed" in terms of the kit I use on a regular basis. I actually had an RD-1s for a few months and found it disappointing; my experiences with the M8, although more limited, have been equally so. Some cameras (and lenses, of course) hit one's personal "sweet spot" - the M8 isn't one of them, for me at least. C'est la vie. As I said before It's my personal opinion, it's not the end of the World and I'm quite happy waiting for the next generation.

 

In fact, right now, I have the "digital camera" I want; it takes a plethora of Leica and other compatible lenses and is smaller, more compact, faster handling and more outright fun to use than any other camera currently on the market. It fits in a pocket, has an ISO range from 50 to 3200 and can take (the much derided) macro shots with the minimum of fuss. I can have digital files and prints 20 minutes after shooting, if I so wish - that's fast enough for me.

 

Here it is :

 

 

Oh, and it doesn't make cappuccino either - just as well, because I can't stand the stuff.

 

...I'll get my coat...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest jimmy pro]

I don't think there will be several generations if they don't do it better. I think they've got one more chance. They might not even have that.

 

That's way more doom and gloom then I'd predict. Lots of people claim the M8 is perfectly good, so they obviously don't have a list of improovements that're neccessary for them to buy a next generation. And I'm sure there're a few people who will buy it just because it's new and it's Leica. And a few more who would praise it to heaven even if it exploded into a zillion pieces in there hand every time they pressed the shutterbutton. From what I can see Leica knows there market real good, in fact a lot better then that market is willing to admit about themself.

[lxlim]

Bringing the M into the 21st century has nothing to do with macro, tilt shift, long lenses or anything else that you should be using a DSLR for.

 

The point of the M is a responsive small discreet available light camera.

 

There is lots technology can do to transparently advance that mission like use LCD technology so you could have one frame set at a time that accurately adjusts for focus distance. That would make for a simpler, less cluttered and more accurate finder.

 

Better high ISO and vibration reduction in body to extend available light capability. The M is not meant to be used on a tripod and hand holding testing has shown you lose fine detail at speeds as high as 1/250.

 

Get the ISO and EV functions out of the LCD menu and onto analogue controls.

 

Make it QUIET even if it means a manual winder.

 

Improve the machining on the shutter release which is the worst release of any M.

 

Provide a means for the user to profile lenses for focus calibration and lens cast.

 

Get a bigger buffer so the camera doesn't lock up while you are in the groove following rapid moving action.

 

There is nothing wrong with having focus confirmation but resources are limited and I don't think Leica can afford to allocate resources to something that will add little to the M mount.

 

You should get a DSLR is a straw man argument. The M8 is a long way from what a simple, rugged and quiet DRF should be. It certainly is not as refined and innovative as the film M3 was at it's release.

 

Thats my personal feeling about the DR trying to be all things to all men in trying to compete with the DSLR. Liveview was never a necessity for me but quietness, precision and toughness is.

 

Its just that if I wanted to use Leica M lenses in other situations where liveview helps

[Photoskeptic]

To answer the original question: I hope not. I shoot mine at least once a week and hope to continue for many years into the future. Mine has been reliable and produces beautiful images with which I make money. Because it is a rangefinder there is absolutely nothing out there to compare it to. The size of the package combined with incomparable Leica glass make it unique in the digital world. I'm certain Leica will come out with something in the future which will surpass the M8, but I hope it will not make it obsolete. After all most of us are just looking for a shooting tool which will convey our vision. The M8 does that for many of us.

[Rolo]

If Leica read this lot - they will !

 

Rolo

[emraphoto]

Thanks Jaap, both for the compliment and for getting my point.

 

I've made no secret of the fact that since the M8 came out I have actually "regressed" in terms of the kit I use on a regular basis. I actually had an RD-1s for a few months and found it disappointing; my experiences with the M8, although more limited, have been equally so. Some cameras (and lenses, of course) hit one's personal "sweet spot" - the M8 isn't one of them, for me at least. C'est la vie. As I said before It's my personal opinion, it's not the end of the World and I'm quite happy waiting for the next generation.

 

In fact, right now, I have the "digital camera" I want; it takes a plethora of Leica and other compatible lenses and is smaller, more compact, faster handling and more outright fun to use than any other camera currently on the market. It fits in a pocket, has an ISO range from 50 to 3200 and can take (the much derided) macro shots with the minimum of fuss. I can have digital files and prints 20 minutes after shooting, if I so wish - that's fast enough for me.

 

Here it is :

 

 

Oh, and it doesn't make cappuccino either - just as well, because I can't stand the stuff.

 

...I'll get my coat...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

that really is a beauty bill. i'm not trying to come of as rude but how do you go from an image captured on film to a digital file in twenty minutes. i mean my tank times alone run 20 minutes +?

care to share the process?

[bill]

that really is a beauty bill. i'm not trying to come of as rude but how do you go from an image captured on film to a digital file in twenty minutes. i mean my tank times alone run 20 minutes +?

care to share the process?

 

Of course.

 

I stand outside the shop and shoot a photo. I rewind, go in, and hand over the roll. 20 minutes/a cup of tea later I pick up negs, prints and a CD with 7mb files for £7.00. Quality is fine for web use; anything more serious I rescan myself. I'm not a total luddite, by the way - I have an Olympus E-400, Canon G7 and Panasonic LX-2 - but none are as much outright fun to use

 

I'll stop hijacking now!

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[RSL]

Of course I knew it would be provactive. Aren't headlines supposed to draw the reader's attention and induce the reader to read more? But, it is one thing to challenge the proposition or ideas and quite another to simply bash the writer because you don't like the ideas being put forth or you disagree with them.

 

John,

 

If you really believed that wouldn't happen you diidn't read this thread back when it was around: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/51590-m9-redux.html

 

To suggest no longer producing or even changing the M8 is like poking a nest of yellow jackets.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[barjohn]

RSL,

 

I realize that there is a bit of a fanatic nest of yellow jackets that call this their hive and I love the contradictions about modernization and no modernization whatsoever. Change for the sake of change is not what I advocate. Change to improve function or add new desirable functions is an important part of an evolving product.

 

I know that Leica is now owned by Mr. kaufman and that he has deep personal pockets. That may be all that is required to keep the M8 going. However, if he is a hard headed business man and sales taper off to the point that he is constantly bleeding money he could reach the point of deciding to cut his losses. Signs of that are increasing prices on a model when after 2 years in production prices should be significantly declining as you amortize your development costs and your parts costs decline. Increasing the price is a possible sign that one is trying to make up for lost volume by raising the profit margin on each sale. Of course, this has a snowball effect where sales further decline and no further increase in price is possible so losses mount.

 

In the computer business marketers frequently add a product life kicker near the end with some improvements to give the product one final kick before it is replaced as at that point in its life cycle it is a cash cow worth milking.

 

By photokina we will know whether Leica has any tricks left up its sleeve or not.