Should Leica Abandon The M8?

[jevidon]

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I think many of you miss the point, and especially with the remark: "...or the company is toast..." . E. Leitz was making optics and was a very successful company in it's own right before they took a chance on Barnack's wonderful little and revolutionary invention. And like Zeiss, they continue to be leading edge in many optical fields. And like Zeiss, they will cut back on camera production and concentrate on their more profitable endeavors before they let the camera business drag them down. I don't know what percent of their R&D and production is devoted to making the wonderful and expensive toys we all enjoy, but I'll bet it is a very minor portion of the total business. There isn't and never has been much of a market for $5000 cameras It is very likely a prestige product to keep their name before the public in addition to the substantial name they have in the scientific and medical community.

 

When their camera business was on the verge of going the way of the other extinct creatures, they went into partnership with one of the largest deep pocket leaders in electronics, Panasonic. I suspect was a profitable move on their part. I think that they will continue to move slow with their camera development because they are really not in competition with anybody on that score. How many cameras does Zeiss make and sell? But they still came out with the new Zeiss Ikon which I suspect is a loss leader for them.

 

I wouldn't worry about Leica going anywhere soon and I shouldn't expect any radical new products from Leica either since that really doesn't pay the freight. So do what I do. Enjoy your quaint M7, MP or M8 as a pleasant break from your hand held overweight computer that happens to have a lens and relearn how to take photos all over again using your brain instead of relying on an impersonal computer chip. I love my Nikon D300 just like I loved the other Nikons that came before it, but now that I took the plunge and went back to an honest simple very high quality digital RF I am really having fun with it.

 

A couple of years ago, I bought a new Contax G2, and while it is really marvelous.

I wasn't crazy about scanning negatives and slides in order to get a decent large print out of my computer and printer. And while I was nostalgic about simpler cameras, I was never that crazy about standing in a confined small dark space inhaling noxious chemicals.

 

With my M8 I get the best of both worlds, and I suggest that you all do the same. Life is too short to obsess about those things over which you have no control.

 

So, relax and enjoy your M8's.

 

Jim Evidon ;) ;)

[Amoment]

I'm with you Jim.

 

I smile every time that I pick my M8 up.

 

Stuart

 

;) ;)

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[marknorton]

IAnd like Zeiss, they continue to be leading edge in many optical fields.... I don't know what percent of their R&D and production is devoted to making the wonderful and expensive toys we all enjoy, but I'll bet it is a very minor portion of the total business.

 

You'd lose your bet...

 

Sounds like you are one of the those who think Leica make microscopes and surveying instruments with cameras as a sideline, a bit like the shareholders who turn up at a Rolls Royce plc AGM and ask how the car business is doing. In fact, Leica Camera shares its name with two other and much larger enterprises which are completely independent and when Leica Camera were in the financial do-dos, the other companies were quick to distance themselves from their near bankrupt cousin.

 

As for the Panasonic connection, it looks like Leica licence their lens design IP to Pansonic and re-badge Panasonic cameras in return with the odd firmware tweak here and there. There is nothing (to my eyes) in the M8 which suggests Panasonic involvement in the design.

 

The link with Jenoptik is much more relevant for taking Leica products forwards.

[jaapv]

Well said, Mark. To which I might add that Leica spokesmen seemed less than enthusiastic about the Panasonic connection a few weeks ago...

[jaapv]

RSL,

 

By photokina we will know whether Leica has any tricks left up its sleeve or not.

 

Stephan Daniel:

 

Be prepared for a number of surprises at the Photokina

[stunsworth]

I might add that Leica spokesmen seemed less than enthusiastic about the Panasonic connection a few weeks ago...

 

Maybe he was in charge of the Digilux 3 marketing campaign. I can't see Leica making that mistake a second time now that Kaufman's in charge.

[jaapv]

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Maybe he was in charge of the Digilux 3 marketing campaign. I can't see Leica making that mistake a second time now that Kaufman's in charge.

Not one - several.

[jevidon]

"...You'd lose your bet..."

 

Quite possibly. I have no connection to Leica and know even less about their business plan than I do about the plans, if any, of my country's leaders, if any. But I do know that Leica makes a h-ll of a product and I see no point in obsessing over their future plan, if any.

 

The M8 is the most user friendly camera I have owned for a long time. It produces wonderful images if you want to put the effort into it to learn it's iconoclastic quirks.

 

As an example, yesterday I took a 13X19 calibration print that I made from Leica's own modest collection on the Internet, placing it vertically and shot a dozen or more photos with the M8 on a tripod with my CV35mm 1.7 Ultron and subdued natural light at my back to reduce glare.. Each shot was with a different combination of EV's and saturation, and a few with contrast alterations. I then spent two hours going blind in front of my screen which was illuminated with a 4700 K light to simulate natural light before I came up with the combinations I liked best. I ended up with 2 user profiles that looked a lot better than the default settings.

 

I'll probably experiment a lot more with other tweaks in the future, because the M8 has very few automatic tweaks, unlike the DSLR's, but it is worth the extra effort. Like any hobby, it's the getting there that is most of the fun. The destination is the reward, as any sailor can tell you.

 

I stand by my opinion, ill informed as it may be.

 

Jim Evidon;) ;) !!

[ken_tanaka]

<...>

So I say abandon the M8 and move into the 21st century and leap frog the competition. It is time to know when to quit flogging that old nag and get a thoroughbred if you want to win the race.

 

Hey, that would make my two M8s collectors items!

 

What a silly thread.

[daveco]

Whenever Leica decides to quit producing the M8, I hope it will not be the end of digital M's. I bought my M8 at the beginning of this year. It's my first rangefinder, although I played around with my dad's Argus C3 when I was a kid. I had been wanting to go with a rangefinder and I wanted to stay with digital and there weren't a lot of options. I bought a 28 Summicron and a 50 Summilux, and subsequently picked up used C/V 15 and 90 lenses and a TE 135 and 35 Summaron. I wanted a small kit for travel and I have ended up using it for much more. I'm having fun with it and am far happier with the IQ than I believed I would be. I still have Canon Dslr's and lenses and continue to use these. Do I wish the M8 had less noise at high ISO's? Sure, but I wish my Canons had less noise at high ISO's, too. I hope to see both Canon and Leica introducing new models with improved features in the future, but right now I am able to capture images that I am proud of with my current equipment.

[Nitnaros]

This forum is certainly entertaining;

 

When the M8 came out, lots of folks claimed that it is the best of all cameras and comparison was made to medium-format etc. I think part of that enthusiasm was that die-hard Leica fans had the first time the chance to "go digital".

 

Recently, when the D3 came out, people started whining how bad the M8 is - now rushing into the other extreme. Comparing a D3 to a M8 sensor-wise, means comparing sensor technology that is probably 4 years old (M8 2 years old; Leica probably developing the M8 2 years before launch) to the newest DSLR out there. That does not make sense either.

 

The M8 has its pro and cons as was discussed here in detail over the last 2 years.

 

The M9 will come naturally with new(er) sensor technology, which could mean 2 f-stops of noise improvement. And I assume that Leica will fix the IR problem and some of the reliability problems.

 

A M9 that is less prone to sudden death, delivers images at ISO2500 with noise equivalent to M8's ISO 640, and has accurate colors w/o IR contamination (or cyan shift) is a very capable package.

 

In any case, I am looking forward to Photokina...

 

Peter

[NB23]

All I can say is the M8 is a joy to use (if used within its limits), it definitely gives the BEST digital files I've seen out of a digital camera (Nikon and Canon DLSR can't touch it) and I'll be all over the M9 once it's out, given that it's a classic M and that it can take a serious beating. I will then sell all my Nikon stuff and never look back.

[Guest stnami]

it definitely gives the BEST digital files I've seen out of a digital camera (Nikon and Canon DLSR can't touch it)

......... if that was the case then all the fashion houses and other high end users would be using the Leica as it's sole small format system, it is not the case. Rreferring some files above others is a subjective thing and each has it merits and cons, just as I prefer slide film for portraits and digital for bnw ..........

[NB23]

Fashion houses? Since when do they decide what's best?

 

Fashion houses do not dictate anything. Funny you think fashion houses have anything to do with the camera market and standards!

I've seen fashion houses accept 20D + Kit lens files... Which only proves it's about the end result and that the photographer decides what's best in his own hands.

 

Until today I haven't read a single critic against the M8 files. Actually, it's all praise, all the time.

 

You're mixing many concepts here.

[Guest stnami]

Best is subjective,it seems you must be skirting the lower end of the industry.

 

 

Head in the sand mentality if you really believe this

Until today I haven't read a single critic against the M8 files. Actually, it's all praise, all the time.

....... or just living in a broom closet waiting to be outed

[diogenis]

You are valuing the critics way too much.

Don't forget they are people like you and me, and they might be wrong, or at best judge based on wrong assumptions. In any case, there's nothing more valuable than your own objective opinion, when you get the product and use, and nothing more wrong when you read other peoples subjective opinions.

 

Fashion houses do exist. These drive the market sadly.

Take as an example the SUVs: the worst idea for traffic, as well as highway driving with its raised center of gravity. Yet everyone rushed in and bought one. Now with the price of oil on the rise, they all try to sell them!!! lol

 

Most critics don't love the m8, because it lacks motors. Good for them, I like it exactly for that!

[tadeyev]

After reading this long and winding flame about an overly discussed topic, in which both a lot of truth as well as bull-dinkle has been discussed, I can only add two points:

 

1. For many of you not into MF, Jenoptik have been at the center of the creation of the new Hy6 MF camera, which is being seen in the market as a gigantic step forward for digital (and film!) application of the MF format. I own a Hy6 and can say that if they are hooking up with Leica in a constructive fashion, we have really, really good chances that the Leica M8/M9 future could become very rosy indeed. If it does, I WILL definitely go for a Leica rangefinder.

 

2. Despite all the people who love the M8 (and I find that the M8 does take really good pictures) there are just way too many problems- not only those reported on many sites but also in talks with professsionals- about breakdowns and problems on a regular basis. Many more than any other camera I have followed, or ever owned in the past, period. And that is where the truth of the problem is. To deny this is simply putting one's head in the sand. The good M8's in the market can't turn that tide.

 

The rebuilt M8's from this fall, or a new M9 might change that- and my bet is on an M9, and I am willing to wait for that possibility...

Cheers all,

Theo

[chris_tribble]

Read the thread - still trying to work out how it is that so many of us manage to take photos with M8s. Can someone explain what I'm doing wrong?

[larry]

Read the thread - still trying to work out how it is that so many of us manage to take photos with M8s. Can someone explain what I'm doing wrong?

 

Chris,

 

I think we're supposed to be looking AT the camera while it's placed squarely in front of our navel, and not looking through its legendarily flawed viewfinder. Try that and I'm sure you'll meet with greater success.

 

Larry

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[kdemas]

OK, a little late to the thread here but I've been traveling. So here is my take:

 

As a line the M series has kept a whole audience engaged specifically because of their ability to keep expensive gear (lenses) relevant, even after 70+ years (screw mounts with adapters). This is not a ball and chain, it is a strength for a company that sells premium priced products and whose customers can rest assured that their "investments" won't be useless on future cameras.

 

That said, I believe there is also room for some real creativity on Leicas part as they get further into their digital future. As I peek at my D300 I see an interesting little switch, "M", "S", "C". Hmmmm, the ability to CHOOSE manual focus mode. Lets see, if incorporated on a future M line camera, designed to be different with different capabilities, we could actually see backward compatibility AND maybe autofocus (OK, now I can hear the catcalls coming!) or some other features that NEW customers might be attracted to.

 

My point is this. A future M body can incorporate "advanced" features to please those that would like to take advantage of them, yet still provide the ability to operate in complete manual mode, free of any shortcomings, if the user chooses. Want lit electronic framelines, turn them on in custom menu xx. Care for auto ISO adjustment to match a desired f-stop/speed combo, go for it. Want autofocus or focus confirmation for those with crappy eyes (like me!), sure turn it on (and sell more lenses as well!).

 

Though the thread initially annoyed me a bit I can say that the core of the idea, that Leica should strive to stay at the forefront and not just "keep doing what we've always done" is interesting. I believe there is a blend of real cutting edge creativity and "backward compatibility" that can be brought to bear in a new M that could make for one unbelievable camera. I am already thrilled with my M8, improvements and new capabilities would only add to the satisfaction I have enjoyed.

 

I love My M8 and all my other Ms (M7 and a couple M5s) so I am in no real hurry to "upgrade", though I will if/when Leica comes out with an improved model. Also I still think the slavish adherence to the dimensions of the M3 might be limiting and a bit of an artificial barrier (hmmmm... my preference for the M5 coming out???).

 

OK, off to face the day and process my pictures from Paris. Have a great day all.

 

Kent