NB23 Posted July 11, 2008 Share #161 Posted July 11, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) you should not assume everyone shares your personal views, as you discovered on RFF. Regards, Bill By "everyone" and "rff", you surely mean the idiotic trio that rule the world over there? Pity-xu et al? Such as the 50 or so old members, I am glad not to be a part of it anymore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Hi NB23, Take a look here Should Leica Abandon The M8?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jrc Posted July 11, 2008 Share #162 Posted July 11, 2008 I'll tell you why I bought an M8 -- because it offered a small package with superb lenses and a good sensor. It's still unrivaled in those qualities, but it also has an unprecedented number of electronic and mechanical problems -- and I owned a Kodak Pro 14n, which was troubled enough that it got recalled for a sensor replacement. Even so, it didn't have as many problems as the Leica. I am still in the market for an M8-style camera. I'll probably buy the M9 (after waiting a while to get the reviews), but if that doesn't appear for a while, I'd also go for a small Olympus, if they get away from the misconceived 4/3 system and start on the pathway toward FF, with a high-quality sensor. The way things stand right now, I suspect that if Nikon came out with a rangefinder camera (as they did a few years ago with that retro film model) that had the D3 sensor, Leica would be a dead duck. In fact, if Epson came out with an RD2, and the 12mp sensor from the Nikon D300, that might be enough to end the game for Leica. Leica can't abandon the M8 (as was suggested by the OP) because that's all its got -- It's looking more and more like a top-end R system entry is a fairy tale, making no sense at all either as a photographic or business proposition. If the R is gone, then Leica needs a new M quickly; and it better be good. JC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 11, 2008 Share #163 Posted July 11, 2008 We are different and happy! And as long as there are some of us, there will be a M8 ... Quote of the year, I like it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted July 11, 2008 Share #164 Posted July 11, 2008 Something else? I've been using Leica M's for 30+ years and i'm still out of the game because the M8 does not work like the old M's precisely. The M8-2 or M9 will become an M, at last, when it 'abandons' its mandatory filters, when it 'abandons' its mandatory coding, when it 'adandons' its mandatory chimping and when it 'abandons' a shutter noise and a moiré rendition that none of us or our fathers would have accepted from a Leica half a century ago. These problems I acknowledged too. Just follow my posting history and you will see we totally agree. But by "working like the old Ms" you mean simplicity, ruggedness and reliable, correct? You don't happen to mean Autofocus, Macro capability, Tilt and shift capability, Capuccino maker, telephoto compatibility and underwater capability, correct? So what are you saying that is different then what I am saying? I just wish people would read more carefully. This way I wouldn't be called a Leica Icon religious geek :rolleyes: Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 11, 2008 Share #165 Posted July 11, 2008 I just wish people would read more carefully. This way I wouldn't be called a Leica Icon religious geek What you wrote was... "As far as I know, people become Leicaphiles because of the camera's simple design with no promise of modernization" - my emphasis. I think people might respond better if you explain what you mean by the end of that sentence. To me it reads as if you want the M to be some kind of museum piece. Certainly someone using a screw mount camera in the 1950s holding the same opinion would have damned the M3 at its launch. It's not about having autofocus, EVF, or a coffee maker, it's about how we can improve on a camera - the M8 - that many of us love, and yet remain true to the M spirit. If it isn't going to change then there's no reason to launch an M9. That's surely wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 11, 2008 Share #166 Posted July 11, 2008 Getting back to the question at hand, my (note 'my') answer would be NO. It should be cherished and admired and continuously updated. I would like higher ISO and FF at some point (no rush) but other than that the M8 is as close to perfect as you will get. Now or in the forseeable future. When all the current Canons and Nikons have come and gone the M8 will remain as a unique icon in the history of photography. Even if Leica ceases to exist, which I do not expect, this status is pretty much guaranteed. People will presumably continue complaining about the imperfections, which is fine with me if that is how you want to spend your days. If you have a beautiful wife do you admire her beauty or focus on a minor pimple? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted July 11, 2008 Share #167 Posted July 11, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ah, ok. Modernization is the bad word. What strikes me is the critics against Leica when the simple solution is to just buy any dslr and be done with it. Leica is not about that. It's about something else. I doubt Leicaphiles fall in love with a M3 and then expect the M9 to have Autofocus or a macro capability (now this one is utterly funny). If Leica can make the M9 to be a fully working bulletproof M8, that is all it takes. This is what I meant by no "modernization". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted July 11, 2008 Share #168 Posted July 11, 2008 One interesting thing that indirectly arises from this thread... Footage about the crowds' reaction to Dylan on electric guitar can be seen in Martin Scorcese's excellent Bob Dylan documentary "No Direction Home" - in which a great film maker takes a great song writer as his subject. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted July 11, 2008 Share #169 Posted July 11, 2008 I'll write this carefully. I do not want you to misunderstand, Ned. 1. There is more to Leica than the M8 2. Autofocus is not a mortal sin 3. Leica M and before them LTM cameras had a macro capability before you were born 4. It's ok to hold a different opinion 5. There is more to Leica than the M8 Now, you will notice that my point 1 and point 5 are the same. That is because it is so bleeding obvious it is worth stating twice. Regards, Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lotw Posted July 11, 2008 Share #170 Posted July 11, 2008 If you have a beautiful wife do you admire her beauty or focus on a minor pimple? BTW, minor 'imperfections' on a beautiful woman can be very sexy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 11, 2008 Share #171 Posted July 11, 2008 Footage about the crowds' reaction to Dylan on electric guitar can be seen in Martin Scorcese's excellent Bob Dylan documentary "No Direction Home" - in which a great film maker takes a great song writer as his subject. In which case if you don't have it you need to buy this DVD of Dylan performances at Newport from 63-65... Amazon.com: The Other Side of the Mirror: Bob Dylan Live at Newport Folk Festival 1963-1965: Bob Dylan: Music Watch a master at work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 11, 2008 Share #172 Posted July 11, 2008 BTW, minor 'imperfections' on a beautiful woman can be very sexy Agreed Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted July 11, 2008 Share #173 Posted July 11, 2008 By "everyone" and "rff", you surely mean the idiotic trio that rule the world over there? Pity-xu et al? Such as the 50 or so old members, I am glad not to be a part of it anymore ..did you get shafted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 11, 2008 Share #174 Posted July 11, 2008 Forgive me if I slip through a time warp and quote my younger self: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Leica To Develop Digital "M" Camera... Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 04:42 pm: Here's my shopping list for a digital M: 1. Real-time EVF with dioptre adjustment, on to which information can be superimposed, such as frame lines, DFI and shutter speed. I would also like to see three user-definable magnifications - .58, .72 and .85. I would be prepared to forego a direct optical viewfinder for this level of "value-add". 2. Full frame digital sensor - I don't want any magnification of focal lengths per se... 3. ...however, a 2x digital zoom facility would be welcome. The ability to turn my 135 into a 270 when needed would be great. 4. SD storage - they are getting bigger all the time. 5. Bluetooth connectivity (for printing and for direct connection to mobile 'phones - this would encourage photojournalist use). 6. RAW mode as well as TIFF and JPEG. 7. "film speeds" of 100 to 800. 8. Optional AA-battery pack (something like the winder M) to allow the use of cheap rechargeables - the next best thing to battery independence. 9. I would like an M-series form factor, but this is NOT essential; the lenses are the thing. 10. Review screen on the back that can only be operated with the lens removed, to discourage the shoot-check-shoot-check-shoot-check tendency. 11. High speed burst mode. 12. Self cleaning CCD, a la Olympus E1. 13. Weather resistance. 14. Optional b&w viewfinder display. 15. Workable macro mode. 16. Tolerance to extremes of temperature. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Regards, Bill At that point of time, I might even have made a few of those points myself, but my only wish was a digital box that was fairly similar to my M6 TTL and took darn good images. That is, in a nutshell what the M8 is about. For me, Leica got it exactly right. Now what you describe in the above is a very interesting camera, but, back then, even if Leica would have had the resources to develop it, it would probably have been a flop and the end of the company. At the present point of time, it might even find a market, but it does not look like something Leica would be interested in developing. Some Japanese company (or German label brand thereof)- well, maybe. It would appeal to a different group of buyers. Which shows that there is a place in the market for a digital Contax? RF besides the M8, I suppose. All in all, it is clear why the M8 is not a camera you would buy. But I still think you would take very good photographs with it all the same Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted July 12, 2008 Share #175 Posted July 12, 2008 ..did you get shafted? Depends how one views things. I think they shafted themselves by not having me and some other folks around anymore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted July 12, 2008 Share #176 Posted July 12, 2008 In which case if you don't have it you need to buy this DVD of Dylan performances at Newport from 63-65... Amazon.com: The Other Side of the Mirror: Bob Dylan Live at Newport Folk Festival 1963-1965: Bob Dylan: Music Watch a master at work. Thanks, that's now on my list. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted July 12, 2008 Share #177 Posted July 12, 2008 ya got the bullet..... :D :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrisfoto Posted July 12, 2008 Share #178 Posted July 12, 2008 As one who uses the scale on the lens to prefocus, and sometimes only that, I think that you are expecting too much from the rangefinder. If one thinks that an M should focus like an slr, then go the slr route. For those of us who use scale focusing, increasing the accuracy of the rangefinder would add unnecessarily to the cost. One of my favorite cameras is a Rollei 35 S, and it only has scale focusing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplomley Posted July 12, 2008 Share #179 Posted July 12, 2008 Not to be overly obtuse, but did anyone really expect Leica to get it perfect the first go around with a DRF? I recall teething issues on both first generation Nikon and Canon DSLRs. I think Leica should be applauded for having the balls to think outside the box in designing a digital camera with minimal interaction required for maximum results. I mean, N&C could really take a lesson or two from Leica in designing a simply elegant interface. It took all of 20 minutes to figure the damn thing out and start making incredibly detailed images. Try that with a D300/D3 or 1DMIII/1DsMIII. Twenty custom functions for each of three groups. Thats only 60 ways to screw up. So Leica should not abandon the M8, they should consider it a stepping stone to an eventual mature product that satisfies the majority of M photographers. In the digital era with Leica being a bit late to the game, they are going to have to learn to crawl before they learn to walk. Personally, I will support them along the way by continuing to buy each new generation of DRF as I still consider the Leica an optimal tool for discretionary street photography. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicpi Posted July 12, 2008 Share #180 Posted July 12, 2008 Yep, the old 'blame it on the lab' story. Works every time, especially if there's a new kid working in there. "we'd sack him, but he's only 17". If he was around now, he'd be using a dual card system ! Rolo In reference to the Capa film being ruined in the lab - the new kid who processed Capa's film of the beach landing was Larry Burrows, working in the London Time-Life darkroom. And he never backed away from that fact. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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