Should Leica Abandon The M8?

[kdemas]

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OK, a little late to the thread here but I've been traveling. So here is my take:

 

As a line the M series has kept a whole audience engaged specifically because of their ability to keep expensive gear (lenses) relevant, even after 70+ years (screw mounts with adapters). This is not a ball and chain, it is a strength for a company that sells premium priced products and whose customers can rest assured that their "investments" won't be useless on future cameras.

 

That said, I believe there is also room for some real creativity on Leicas part as they get further into their digital future. As I peek at my D300 I see an interesting little switch, "M", "S", "C". Hmmmm, the ability to CHOOSE manual focus mode. Lets see, if incorporated on a future M line camera, designed to be different with different capabilities, we could actually see backward compatibility AND maybe autofocus (OK, now I can hear the catcalls coming!) or some other features that NEW customers might be attracted to.

 

My point is this. A future M body can incorporate "advanced" features to please those that would like to take advantage of them, yet still provide the ability to operate in complete manual mode, free of any shortcomings, if the user chooses. Want lit electronic framelines, turn them on in custom menu xx. Care for auto ISO adjustment to match a desired f-stop/speed combo, go for it. Want autofocus or focus confirmation for those with crappy eyes (like me!), sure turn it on (and sell more lenses as well!).

 

Though the thread initially annoyed me a bit I can say that the core of the idea, that Leica should strive to stay at the forefront and not just "keep doing what we've always done" is interesting. I believe there is a blend of real cutting edge creativity and "backward compatibility" that can be brought to bear in a new M that could make for one unbelievable camera. I am already thrilled with my M8, improvements and new capabilities would only add to the satisfaction I have enjoyed.

 

I love My M8 and all my other Ms (M7 and a couple M5s) so I am in no real hurry to "upgrade", though I will if/when Leica comes out with an improved model. Also I still think the slavish adherence to the dimensions of the M3 might be limiting and a bit of an artificial barrier (hmmmm... my preference for the M5 coming out???).

 

OK, off to face the day and process my pictures from Paris. Have a great day all.

 

Kent

 

 

All that said, I have just been thinking a bit more. Simplicity is a strength of the M8, lets make sure that "advances" don't turn the camera into another "me too" SLR minus the TTL viewing.

 

Long and short, I really love my M8 and hopefully future enhancements will create a camera that is similarly enjoyable.

 

Kent

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[barjohn]

Kent,

 

Yours is one of the few posts that seems to get the point. I never said the M8 doesn't take good pictures yet how many posts talk about that it takes good pictures as if that alone is justification not to change anything.

 

The simple truth is that it would appear that the camera is no longer selling well and sales are in decline. Is the market saturated for a DRF? I don't think so. More likely it is a combination of factors, price, reputation for the camera and its foibles, & lack of more advanced features. Leica must do something to stay in the camera business. If the form factor or adherence to past lens design is holding them back, then it is time to abandon them. If not keep them. Better for Leica to change and still be around than to not change and go out of business.

[NB23]

Best is subjective,it seems you must be skirting the lower end of the industry.

 

 

Head in the sand mentality if you really believe this

 

....... or just living in a broom closet waiting to be outed

 

Credits? M8 Owner? Published book? You have something to show or are you only a week-end warrior? Come on, show something.

[Eoin]

.....The simple truth is that it would appear that the camera is no longer selling well and sales are in decline. Is the market saturated for a DRF? I don't think so. More likely it is a combination of factors, price, reputation for the camera and its foibles, & lack of more advanced features. Leica must do something to stay in the camera business. If the form factor or adherence to past lens design is holding them back, then it is time to abandon them. If not keep them. Better for Leica to change and still be around than to not change and go out of business.

 

Now the lawyer / engineer has become a market analyst, a brand manager and a free trouble shooter, wonderful. And with all this supposition you want to axe the M8.

[luigi bertolotti]

As Kdemas, me too arrive late here... and confess I didn't read all the posts... but my opinion, for what is worth, is that Leica canot abandon M8 NOW: they have demonstrated that the M system (which was a niche product line even on film) can evolve to digital maintaining a really significant continuity with its heritage (lenses, styling, handling) : if it continues to sell in DECENT numbers (decent only, M8 simply CANNOT make big numbers), and moreover if they'll be able to attract new RF users with the speculated "Digital CL", they can think to invest in a really NEW DRF system, with a quantum leap even more significant than the jump from SM to BM Leicas they made more than 50 years ago... how such a camera will be ? The "10 points" i red here are a good starting point... but isn't simply the technology that counts... we know that part of it shall be surely outsourced... is the CONCEPT in itself that MUST be brilliant: I hope for them that they can prove to be really innovative as they were decades and decades ago.

[Ariston]

Kent,

 

Yours is one of the few posts that seems to get the point. I never said the M8 doesn't take good pictures yet how many posts talk about that it takes good pictures as if that alone is justification not to change anything.

 

The simple truth is that it would appear that the camera is no longer selling well and sales are in decline. Is the market saturated for a DRF? I don't think so. More likely it is a combination of factors, price, reputation for the camera and its foibles, & lack of more advanced features. Leica must do something to stay in the camera business. If the form factor or adherence to past lens design is holding them back, then it is time to abandon them. If not keep them. Better for Leica to change and still be around than to not change and go out of business.

 

The point you are missing is why people choose to buy Leicas in the first place. It's never going to be more than a niche market and there won't be new M models every year. That's why Leica waited such a long time to bring in a digital M which would not become disposable after 3 years and which still accepts all the old lenses and continues the Leica tradition. The proposed perpetual upgrade path for the M8 appeals to those who have always paid a premium for Leicas knowing that they won't be obsolescent overnight.

[barjohn]

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Now the lawyer / engineer has become a market analyst, a brand manager and a free trouble shooter, wonderful. And with all this supposition you want to axe the M8.

 

Maybe you should read their financial reports before you make such snide comments. You also need to learn to read period.

[Guest Ridder Cornelius]

Credits? M8 Owner? Published book? You have something to show or are you only a week-end warrior? Come on, show something.

 

 

yes, it's becoming Leica'dly rough now ..... before we know people will be pulling their socks out of their pockets and slapping each other around the face with it ..... great stuff for some genuine "war-photography"

 

More entertaining than the last episode if the Sopranos I must say.

[Eoin]

The financial reports give no insight specific to the success or lack of for the M8 AFAIK. But rather an overview of the company as a whole. My comments are not meant to be snide:rolleyes: , but rather question your ability given your stated background to know or preach a recipe of success for Leica. I have a problem with self appointed experts preach fiction as fact. You need to re-read many of the posts here from avid M8 users who are both happy with the M8 and glad they can use existing M and LTM lenses on it. As for others who yet have to make the jump into digital, I hope at some time in the future Leica will bring an offering to market that will both please you and maintain the feel currently enjoyed with film M's.

 

Come to think of it John, I can't think of a single positive post you've written about your time with the M8, which begs my original question to you on the first page.

[Guest stnami]

[BerndReini]

It is beyond me how anybody who owns the M8 and actually uses it on a regular basis can dislike it. I love the M8 despite of its few shortcomings. Why would you buy it if it is that bad? As a status symbol? A Leica is like a Rolex for a lot of people. A cheap digital watch will give you the time more accurately than a handmade Swiss watch. Leica is not going to abandon the M-series in the near future. I actually heard that they are using the same machine for the manufacturing of the WATE that they used for the standard Tri-Elmar. And a machine for half a million dollars is a huge investment for a company that size. That is one of the reasons, the Tri-Elmar was discontinued and not because there was no demand. There was just more demand for other M-lenses that were easier to produce.

 

Leica will continue developing the M-system and use the prestige of their lenses to sell lenses for little point-and-shoot cameras and camcorders for Panasonic. And when you look at the numbers that those things sell at, it does not take a business degree to realize that this is where the real money is to be made, even if it is a smaller profit-margin.

 

People keep arguing a point so much that it becomes solely about winning an argument. Sometimes it might be better to go back and rethink one's original thesis.

 

Should Leica abandon the M8? Absolutely not. I hope it amuses them to read how people on this forum are trying to give them advice about this kind of business strategy after they went out and spent a huge amount of money on a camera system they obviously don't think is worth pursuing.

[diogenis]

If Leica really makes it's money from selling consumer lenses for p&s cameras, or even it's binoculars, then the M8 is a project of love and prestige, and it won't get abandoned like this.

Instead, it will get better and better as time goes by. We all know how great, products turn, when the producer is free of all the marketing geniuses singing around.

[AlanG]

The point you are missing is why people choose to buy Leicas in the first place. It's never going to be more than a niche market and there won't be new M models every year. That's why Leica waited such a long time to bring in a digital M which would not become disposable after 3 years and which still accepts all the old lenses and continues the Leica tradition. The proposed perpetual upgrade path for the M8 appeals to those who have always paid a premium for Leicas knowing that they won't be obsolescent overnight.

 

Fast development and constant improvement did not start with digital cameras.

 

Nikon went from no cameras to being way ahead of Leica (by introducing a great SLR system) in about 9 years. I don't know how long it took Leica to realize that.

 

Nikon M (1950) ● Nikon S (1951)

● Nikon S2 (1954) ● Nikon SP (1957)

● Nikon S3 (1958) ● Nikon S4 (1959)

● Nikon F (Nikon’s first SLR camera) (1959)

 

So only 6 years passed between the Nikon S and the Nikon SP. And just 2 more years for the F. This didn't mean that the M, S, S2, SP, S3, and S4 became obsolete in 1959. People are still using them today. The same is true today as digital cameras have matured, the previous models can still be used and certainly don't become "disposable."

 

Then the Nikon F stuck around for about 12 years but I think the competiiton with Canon's F1 forced Nikon back to quicker development cycles for new products. The same with the Nikon D1. When Canon came out with the 1D followed by the 1Ds, Nikon got back to work and look at what they eventually produced. Competiton drives the DSLR business but the digital rangefinder market is one "traditonal" player.

 

I think if Leica contents itself as the sole player in a niche market it may get by for a while until someone encroaches on its small market and forces Leica to become more competitive or go out of business. I hope they have more of a plan for the future than just a quieter shutter and a saphire screen.

[Saloti]

Good morning.

 

Reading this thread I come to the following conclusion:

 

1. There is John who, as a Leica product manager, would run this company into

insolvency within the next 6-12 months, abandoning the M8. So this is simply

& purely nonsense.

 

2. There are others, who know about the potentials of further developing the digital

M-body. A lot of them use the M8, are satisfied, but clearly require further

improvements. They expect "a new M8" or M9, but they are not in a hurry.

They prefer insufficencies to be eliminated rather than a -second- quick shot.

 

3. There are "new" D RF consumers out there: Leica will be able to attract them

by offering attracive sets/bundles M8-body/lenses, while planning the next thep

with regard to the M-series.

 

4. There is a business rational : This year Leica will especially concentrate on the

R-series. At the same time they will be further developing the M-series, launching

commercially a M9 latest for Photokina 2010, maybe positioning 2 M-bodies in the

RF segment, a digital CL with current sensor size and a larger M9 with full sensor

size. Finally they will have to continue to be successful in their cash cow product

segment, compact cameras.

 

5. Finally a truth: So far Leica has not proved that product (life cycle) management

is their strength. Germans only too often mix technical product development with

product management. At this level I completely agree to Alan, Leica needs to

make very big steps with regard to this business discipline.

[leicagator]

Lothar,

 

couldn't agree more - well said ,

 

especially regarding your No. 1 (in particular: if "B-John" thinks he is able to "understand" a company by simply referring to its financial reports - he has already sufficiently demonstrated his lack of expertise).

 

I wish Leica good luck and that they will follow (real) experts advices in their future...

 

Leicagator

(who is reading periodicals on a regular basis, but is still wondering what periods are: "to read period")

[jaapv]

Lothar, finally a sensible post. Well said. Although I do not quite agree with your point about product life cycles. Surely the type of products Leica makes demand a life cycle management that is R&D driven rather than marketing driven?

[plasticman]

especially regarding your No. 1 (in particular: if "B-John" thinks he is able to "understand" a company by simply referring to its financial reports - he has already sufficiently demonstrated his lack of expertise).

I wish Leica good luck and that they will follow (real) experts advices in their future...

Leicagator

(who is reading periodicals on a regular basis, but is still wondering what periods are: "to read period")

 

(looks over both shoulders to make sure Terry isn't listening, before gingerly stepping back into the ring...)

Hi guys - how about we try to have these debates without personal acrimony - I just don't see the need. Sometimes people's posts come off as very aggressive - I know some people have even read my input in that way - but I think that what's lacking is the face-to-face gestures that indicate how we really feel.

'Period' means 'full-stop' in the US - in the sense of punctuation.

 

Mani

[dpattinson]

probably pays to consider their likely financial reports if they hadn't produced the M8.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[leicagator]

P-Man,

 

I agree with your conclusion.

 

However, I am quite confused to read these lines from someone who doubt's participants ability to read in such a rude way (combined with providing questionable - to put it positively - advice).

 

Back to the thread: Of course Leica shall not abandon the M8 as long as there are enthusiasts that keep the business going, irrespective of other people's generalistic views.

 

Regards

Stefan

[plasticman]

P-Man,

I agree with your conclusion.

However, I am quite confused to read these lines from someone who doubt's participants ability to read in such a rude way (combined with providing questionable - to put it positively - advice).

Back to the thread: Of course Leica shall not abandon the M8 as long as there are enthusiasts that keep the business going, irrespective of other people's generalistic views.

 

Leicagator - I didn't mean just you - I took a break from the forum over the weekend, and when I came back it felt like there was a lot of personal animosity floating around.

 

I quoted your input because I personally don't like the attitude that often comes up when someone criticises the camera, that the person is an 'armchair expert' or that they are arrogant to tell Leica 'how to run their company'. We mustn't forget that this is just an internet forum, and that its raison d'être is precisely the free exchange of ideas.

If you question or disagree with barjohn's thesis or facts that's one thing - I strongly disagree with the thesis that Leica should discontinue the M-line - but I'm also worried about the contents of the financial report as it relates to the M8 versus the (discontinued in future?) PanaLeica range of cameras, and I think barjohn has a valid point in highlighting that concern.

 

Maybe I can take the opportunity of laying to rest a couple of other issues, while I'm here:

 

- people often say "life's too short" and so on, when they express incomprehension of those of us who are waiting for what we would say is an 'improved' version of the M8. The mistake here is that we're all sitting in the dark, wringing our hands in despair. I think it's fair to say that most 'abstainers' are actually out-and-about enjoying the alternatives (film or digital), and are in no urgent hurry.

 

- the other thing is the characterization of those for whom the M8 wasn't the right iteration as DSLR fans in sheep's clothing.

I personally hope that the M9 might be even more manual than the M8 (that is, by access to ISO through a dial not a menu-choice, and through a wind lever - amongst other small changes). My main priority would be increased reliability, with a better sensor as a close second. And for those who say that this comes from 'internet chatter' or 'dragging through forums and blogs in the search of negatives' then my personal experience of the M8 is two professionals who I've had contact with (not friends) both of whom have sold the M8 after reliability issues.

 

One last thing. I've chosen the M-system as my camera of choice, and I fully hope and intend for that system to last me through a few decades. However, my work brings me into continual contact with photographers and images made for some of the biggest global brands. I can see that the M8 therefore has some limitations when compared to other cameras, and there's no point in denying it. The choice to use the M-system is not solely based on image quality, the system and the camera have many other advantages that we all know about.

Let's hope that the Jenoptik tie-in yields results that they've shown in other systems.

 

Mani