Leica M8 bashed by Michael Kamber

[jaapv]

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There's a shrill and defensive tone to the forum - it feels like I'm watching a child holding their hands over their ears and screaming "I'm not listening!" - but the problems are real, and some of us want Leica to hear them and deal with them - for the sake of their own future, and the future of the great company they once were.

 

Why do you think that Leica is not hearing them and dealing with them? :confused:

 

Isn't it just as childish to sit there screaming "I want my ice-cream NOW!!!" ?

[jaapv]

2. What did Herr Daniel say?

 

Nothing - nobody thought it worth discussing.....

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[dpattinson]

Why can't the timer simply be de-activated via the menu? You can set the length of timer delay, why not have a setting so the timer position actually is another S or C? In this position the back buttons could be locked also. Two potential problems could be solved with a simple firmware alteration.

 

The only reason I can imagine is that they didn't do any significant usability testing until after the point where adding in that feature would have been too expensive. It's such a glaringly obvious solution that there must (hopefully) be some design reason why disabling the timer is not just a firmware change.

 

I sincerely hope that Leica will rethink the design and put something more immediately useful than self-timer as a first order manual control on the next camera.

[Guest stnami]

[jaapv]

Amen,mate.

[AlanG]

...It's such a glaringly obvious solution that there must (hopefully) be some design reason why disabling the timer is not just a firmware change...

 

Perhaps it could be harder than I think, but I doubt it. If the firmware is capable of setting a timing delay in number of seconds from 2 to 12, it should simply be able to have a value of "zero" for no delay.

 

I can only speculate on how hard it is to lock the buttons but as these are all inputs into a processor, I'd venture a guess that it is possible for firmware to be altered to change this in just about any desired manner.

[smokysun]

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well, here's some irony. just told majoli now using m8's! anybody know if it's true?

[dseelig]

Well I for one will use the tape method as it has happened to me the camera going to self timer mode but I hate taping my camera up. David

[jaapv]

There seems to be quite some individual variations between cameras. On one of mine the detent is so positive that it is virtually impossible to move the switch accidentally, the other has a slightly less "clicky" action and might conceivably be pushed from its position by mistake. I have the impression that there are quite a number of cameras out there with very loose detents. I seem to recall that Mark suggested that the detent is adjustable. If so it is just a matter of having it done when the camera is in for service.

[plasticman]

well, here's some irony. just told majoli now using m8's! anybody know if it's true?

 

As far as I know, that rumor arose from someone making a harmless joke in an isolated thread on photo.net. Interesting how this has now become an established internet rumor - although for all I know it may actually be true by now.

[diogenis]

There seems to be quite some individual variations between cameras. On one of mine the detent is so positive that it is virtually impossible to move the switch accidentally, the other has a slightly less "clicky" action and might conceivably be pushed from its position by mistake. I have the impression that there are quite a number of cameras out there with very loose detents. I seem to recall that Mark suggested that the detent is adjustable. If so it is just a matter of having it done when the camera is in for service.

 

But, Jaap

Why does someone has to play with buttons?

You go out for a shooting, you put that damn switch on s or c and that's it! forget about it. There is auto power off so you don't have to push the lever back and forth.

[jaapv]

Beats me, but it is a common complaint. And one does brush against the switch, the camera goes in and out of the case, etc.

[luigi bertolotti]

Yes, frankly the loose switch is maybe my single complaint about the M8 body in itself: I'm not a frequent shooter, so is significant that happened twice, to me, that the switch got moved inadvertitely, once to the selftimer position... no drama... but not fine... I'd simply would like it is harder to move: anyway, not a reason for sending the M8 to CLA

[Eoin]

I've been drifting in and out reading some of the thread, but this issue about the switch moving to the timer is a bit of a storm in a tea cup, I'll be honest and say it's happened to me twice or three times in 18 months, but I'll also be honest and say on many many more occasions I've put the camera up to my eye only to discover I'd forgotten to turn the damn thing on or forgotten to take the lens cap off . But that's acceptable I presume because it's user error and not a mechanical flaw with the switch or the lens.

 

Yea I'm one of those guys who shoots his children with an M8, I'm not old enough to have grandchildren (yet), I choose to use digital rather than film, which quite frankly allows me more control and output than my darkroom ever did. The marvels of wonderful raw processing software, inkjet printers and various papers give me output I could only dream of in my darkroom days.

 

So I'm not apologising for Leica's defects with the M8, I've been at the coal face so to speak, suffering the problems of the first batch. My camera has been back in Solms 4 times in 18 months, twice for focus adjustment with a noctilux, once for the first batch update and recently a sensor replacement. It has left a sour taste in my mouth, not specifically about the camera but more about the quality control that seems to be missing at Leica in general.

 

But all the above is tempered by the very simple fact, when you place a Leica lens on the M8 and shoot, the results speak for themselves, with modern glass, no distortion, no CA, strong colours and contrast. With older glass, mood, softness and glow.

 

Now here is the important point IMO and again not making apologies for Leica. The M8 is the starting point for Leica's digital rangefinders, it was the first attempt by Leica to bring it to the market place of existing M users. It's next incarnation can and should be better. I hope Leica have learnt lessons from the M8. The pandering to have the design in keeping with the M range has had mixed reactions. Some deplore the removable base plate yet others want a manual shutter advance. But by in large it feels and operates like any other M when one takes into consideration the electro mechanical metal shutter and body thickness. And, the resulting images speak volumes as to how close Leica have come given the inherent design problems.

 

Given the fact that I've now become used to the UV/IR filters, the firmware has addressed many issues and with the exception of the faulty sensor and focus shift of particular lenses, I've had little or no problems problems with my M8. I use it daily to shoot moments that are both personal and for my pleasure, and I love he quality from such a small package.

 

But then, what would I know, I'm no professional. I'm only shooting my kids, my family.

[MP3]

I thought the critics from Kamber is largely spot on.

M8 is far from a perfect M, but it still exhibits features in IQ and form

that we got excitement using it to express our photography.

 

Simply it got quinks but we 'love' it.

Just like the Summilux 35 Aspherical is technically a better lens than the old chrome 35 Lux, but I like the images drawn by the latter more.

 

BTW, Eoin, what happened to your M8 sensor that require a replacement ?

[Eoin]

A faint vertical line started to appear @ ISO 640 on the very RHS of the sensor top to bottom. It became more pronounced in shadow detail and at higher ISO's. It seemed to originate from a semi stuck pixel . Leica turned the camera around door to door in 3 weeks which was quite good I thought.

[grduprey]

Not sure I understand the complaints about the buttons not being recessed. I have no problems with them what so ever, and find them no different from those on Nikon or Canon digital cameras. I have never accidently pushed any of them and had any strange happenings with the camera. As to the mode switch on top, I have only once accidently moved it but only after getting it caught on my shirt.

 

Gene

[ho_co]

... this issue about the switch moving to the timer is a bit of a storm in a tea cup, I'll be honest and say it's happened to me twice or three times in 18 months, but I'll also be honest and say on many many more occasions I've put the camera up to my eye only to discover I'd forgotten to turn the damn thing on or forgotten to take the lens cap off . ...

Excellent point, Eoin.

 

I usually don't use the lens cap when I'm shooting; I leave the front uncapped when I put the lens into the bag, taking care where I put it, of course.

 

But I have numerous times switched the camera off--while I'm in the restaurant, for example--and then when I'm ready to shoot, I frame, compose, focus, press--and curse.

 

Clearly user error, and I do it with other cameras as well. The only difference is I didn't pay as much for them. I paid for a camera that doesn't try to do everything for me.

 

And Leica can adjust the tension on the switch if we're not happy with it. For some it's an issue, for others it isn't.

[FastFashnReloaded]

I trust every single word in the article - he was brutally honest, and that quality is reflected in his work. Thanks for testing the M8 Michael - someone had to do it!

 

Would you take a road bike on a single track in the mountains?

 

All things to all people it isn't...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ho_co]

After re-reading Michael Kamber's article, I think he makes the following points. (I've added brief analyses and current status for many of them.)

 

 

Page 2:

21mm lens is approx equiv of 28 on full-frame, but on M8 the 21mm doesn’t cue the 28 frame

ANALYSIS:

a) 28mm lens triggers 28mm frame on M8, 35mm lens triggers 35mm frame, etc--just as on all previous Ms

M cameras have always had external VF for widest angle lenses;

c) M8 is first M camera to include 24mm frame in VF;

d) reducing magnification more would reduce focusing accuracy

STATUS: this state will remain

 

Page 2:

28mm lens’s frame is inaccurate

STATUS: true for all frame lines

 

Page 2:

camera control had been set to self-timer accidentally by brush with clothing;

ANALYSIS:

a) switch detent pressure can be adjusted by Leica;

usefulness of self-timer varies among photographers; cf Nikon’s and Canon’s approaches; see Michael Reichmann on the topic

STATUS: unchanged

 

Page 2

buttons not recessed; can be reset inadvertently

STATUS: true

 

 

Page 3

+/- exposure correction: M8 requires use of menu; others allow use of thumb-wheel on back of camera w/o taking camera from eye

STATUS: true

 

Page 3:

AWB erratic

STATUS: corrected with firmware 1.201

 

Page 3:

green cast to images except when shot with Biogon 25/2.8

ANALYSIS: problem previously unknown to me

STATUS: unknown

 

 

Page 4

auto exposure unreliable, sometimes varying by more than a stop

STATUS:

a) exposure variations corrected with firmware 1.201;

M8 meter possibly more difficult to work with than those of dSLRs

 

Page 4:

in manual mode:

a) speeds don’t appear in finder;

speeds can’t always be read on speed dial because of light or motion;

c) speed dial has no stop to orient the user

STATUS: true

 

Page 4:

low light capability:

a) both 21 and 24 are only f/2.8

noise and streaks above ISO 640

STATUS:

a) for lenses, unchanged;

for noise and streaking, apparently reduced with firmware 1.201

 

 

Page 5

sluggish--buffer too small, allows only 9 frames; takes 1 min to clear buffer on JPG + RAW, 35 sec on JPG only

ANALYSIS:

camera is fastest with DNG, slower with JPG, slowest with JPG + DNG

CAVEAT:

Kamber mentions several times that he hasn’t time for postprocessing, so for him being much faster with DNG is beside the point

STATUS: unchanged from his observation

 

Page 5:

sluggish--takes 3 sec to turn on

ANALYSIS:

understandable misapprehension, because image count doesn’t appear till camera has read SD card; however, camera is ready to shoot as soon as VF LEDs appear

STATUS: in Kamber’s cameras and in current ones, from turn-on to ready-to-fire is just under one second

 

Page 5:

turning the rear dial sometimes causes the opposite of what one wanted

STATUS: problem greatly improved with firmware 1.201

 

Page 5:

Kamber writes of a specific situation:

”The camera buffer quickly filled, the automatic exposure fluctuated wildly, the shadows filled with noise, and the color balance was way off.”

STATUS:

a) buffer--unchanged

wild variation in auto exposure--fixed with firmware 1.201

c) shadow noise--apparently improved with firmware 1.201

d) incorrect color balance--fixed with firmware 1.201

 

 

Page 6

SD card removal via baseplate can be troublesome for journalists like him in Iraq

STATUS: unchanged

 

Page 6

requires expensive IR filters, which in sandy Iraq need to be replaced every six months

STATUS: unchanged

 

Page 6:

too much depth of field compared with full-frame cameras with faster lenses

ANALYSIS:

for the M8 with its 4/3 crop factor to generate an image equivalent to that of a 24/1.4 on full frame, the M8 would require an 18/1.05 (calculation as described by Leica’s Director of Lens Development, Peter Karbe, per “Form Follows Format,” LFI 3/2006, pp 40-47)

STATUS: unchanged; a physical and optical property of smaller sensors and slower lenses

 

Page 6:

build quality:

”In my opinion, Leica’s quality control today is well below that of other camera makers. This, coupled with poor field testing of new models and what is probably the longest repair wait of any major camera manufacturer, is a very serious problem for a working photojournalist. I have waited up to three months for lens repairs and four months for camera body repairs that had to be sent to Germany.”

STATUS: unknown; possibly true; certainly true in Kamber's case

 

Page 6:

Kamber now spends a couple paragraphs describing problems with M7’s, and says first M8 was ‘similarly glitchy’--

”The camera would frequently randomly overexpose several frames by as much as 4 stops, rendering the images completely unusable.”

camera was replaced by dealer in January 2008

COMMENT: replacement camera probably predates the improvements now shipping

STATUS: fixed by firmware 1.201 and/or in current modified M8 internal design

 

 

Page 7

Allendale promised timely return of a lens sent for 6-bit coding, but failed to deliver in time

Allendale supposedly ‘repaired’ the second camera, but:

”The camera continues to lock up and is now randomly exposing half-frames. ... It is worse than when I sent it in for repair.”

COMMENT: none directly, though I doubt that most people have this degree of problem with Leica service

 

Page 7:

conclusion:

M8 useful for unobtrusive shooting;

nonetheless:

”I have found the Leica M8 to be unreliable, poorly designed, and to deliver substandard results in most of the situations in which I have used it. I can’t think of any camera--or for that matter any electronic device I have recently used--that so thoroughly fails to live up to its potential and its heritage.“

camera introduces uncertainties into a war zone, where there are already enough uncertainties not to need more from one’s tools

 

 

COMMENT:

Kamber had a rough go with his cameras, and I am glad he posted his report. Many of the problems have been taken care of with the latest camera and firmware, but many others have not been and some cannot be so long as the M8 uses a cropped sensor.

 

There are a few places where more detail might be helpful for analysis--for example, dates of accrual of first two cameras are given, but I don't think that of the third is; he mentions return of a 28/2.8 for coding, but it isn’t clear the degree to which Kamber had used the uncoded lens if at all.

 

This isn’t a complaint; Kamber’s article is thorough and nit-picking details like these would not change his experience.

 

I do think that the M8s currently shipping are more reliable than the ones Kamber used.