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Leica M8 bashed by Michael Kamber


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Yes, and I expect the cheapest and simplest of these gizmos costs nearly as much if not more, than an M8.

 

If people had been prepared to pay £10,000 for an M8 I'm sure Leica would have been able to design a battle ready one.

 

Look at the price of super rugged PCs if you want to know how much that kind of resiliance costs.

 

 

Here, here.

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It seems there's still some juice to squeeze out of this thread? :-)

My point was that I think the M8 should be used to capture the most intense and exciting situations, also in a war zone.

 

I don't know how to describe it, but I believe that the best situations are when there's something at stake.

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It was an interesting read from the perspective of someone who depends upon his cameras for his living in a harsh and dangerous environment. I'm sure if the M8 were capable of delivering the goods, then MK would shout just as loudly in it's favour.

 

Unfortunately, it can't.

 

... in a war zone, that is ;)

 

I actually think all Kamber's ergonomic design criticisms of the M8 are right on the money.

 

The self-timer should be somewhere away from the power switch. The power switch should not even be the drive mode. The bottom plate SD change is silly. The LEDs should read out the shutter speed, even in M mode. The framelines could be better, and the buttons more carefully recessed or something to prevent accidental changes (though that last one is probably only interesting to those who wear flak jackets. I've never pushed a button by accident with my body when shooting). There should be an AE override that's easy to use when your eye is looking through the RF.

 

I hope Leica changes all of those things for the next digital M. I cut them huge slack on this, because these are easy things to get wrong the first time out... I do hope they do more widespread beta testing of their next design, though.

 

Some of the issues he experienced are obviously firmware dependent; I don't shoot in a war zone, so I don't care about AWB (I can fix that since I'm not being shot at) or the errors in auto exposure (I shoot manual and have time later so again I don't care).

 

I also don't understand his point of the cost of replacing filters. LOL!! What... he'd rather replace lens front elements every 3 to 6 months? That made no sense at all. Or is he saying he'd rather be able to throw some very cheap peice of glass in front of the M lenses?

 

I found it interesting that a lot of the shots in Kamber's articles were simply way way underexposed, and would need much higher ISO capability than the M8 provides currently. Often, when he's shooting at ISO 1250 and complaining about noise in the shadows, his shadow details are at least three stops under (his already underexposed) midtones. That would be what? ISO 20000? Again Guy is right--a D3 or D700 would be what I'd be bringing given those light requirements... Using ISO 640 is only going to make matters worse in those conditions...

 

The electronic glitches like battery errors and resets can still be fixed, I think, in the current M8 design. They should be fixed too: they're inexcusable for a Leica M.

 

So I actually think his review is balanced and fair. Since I don't shoot in those conditions (nothing like them) I can use the M8 because on balance I'm comfortable with its limitations for its plusses... but Leica obviously has a lot of room to improve for M performance in extreme circumstances, and we could all benefit from improved reliabilty and better design the second time round.

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Stop being so defensive:D. Few m8 owners give their cameras a hard time and those that do have something else. Erls went back for a short drop, so have a few others in here that I read eons ago. And how many failure returns is acceptable in your line of work Jaap? Its a soft camera, if you can work around that then it is probably great. But explain to me why it isnt a must have for every journo photographer when it should be?

 

I'm not being defensive, I just want to point out the thing is built like a tank. I know - my cameras are not being coddled, (without being anywhere near war zones I may add. I would not have Mr. Kambers courage, and would probably use a cellphone camera to avoid being recognized as a journalist) But I can compare, from having smashed up various M cameras over the years, including an M8. It is just as difficult or easy to break as an M4 or M6.

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Guest guy_mancuso
... in a war zone, that is ;)

 

I actually think all Kamber's ergonomic design criticisms of the M8 are right on the money.

 

The self-timer should be somewhere away from the power switch. The power switch should not even be the drive mode. The bottom plate SD change is silly. The LEDs should read out the shutter speed, even in M mode. The framelines could be better, and the buttons more carefully recessed or something to prevent accidental changes (though that last one is probably only interesting to those who wear flak jackets. I've never pushed a button by accident with my body when shooting). There should be an AE override that's easy to use when your eye is looking through the RF.

 

I hope Leica changes all of those things for the next digital M. I cut them huge slack on this, because these are easy things to get wrong the first time out... I do hope they do more widespread beta testing of their next design, though.

 

Some of the issues he experienced are obviously firmware dependent; I don't shoot in a war zone, so I don't care about AWB (I can fix that since I'm not being shot at) or the errors in auto exposure (I shoot manual and have time later so again I don't care).

 

I also don't understand his point of the cost of replacing filters. LOL!! What... he'd rather replace lens front elements every 3 to 6 months? That made no sense at all. Or is he saying he'd rather be able to throw some very cheap peice of glass in front of the M lenses?

 

I found it interesting that a lot of the shots in Kamber's articles were simply way way underexposed, and would need much higher ISO capability than the M8 provides currently. Often, when he's shooting at ISO 1250 and complaining about noise in the shadows, his shadow details are at least three stops under (his already underexposed) midtones. That would be what? ISO 20000? Again Guy is right--a D3 or D700 would be what I'd be bringing given those light requirements... Using ISO 640 is only going to make matters worse in those conditions...

 

The electronic glitches like battery errors and resets can still be fixed, I think, in the current M8 design. They should be fixed too: they're inexcusable for a Leica M.

 

So I actually think his review is balanced and fair. Since I don't shoot in those conditions (nothing like them) I can use the M8 because on balance I'm comfortable with its limitations for its plusses... but Leica obviously has a lot of room to improve for M performance in extreme circumstances, and we could all benefit from improved reliabilty and better design the second time round.

 

Well said Jamie. Now if you said that to me before i left for such a assignment all that you just said , i would have picked 3 d300's and left them on the ground when i was done. Given the M8 at this time a better tool or maybe even say a disposable tool would have been a better option. But i do respect his decision to use the M8, maybe better knowledge of it would have been something he should have looked into before going.

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Stop being so defensive:D. Few m8 owners give their cameras a hard time and those that do have something else. Erls went back for a short drop, so have a few others in here that I read eons ago. And how many failure returns is acceptable in your line of work Jaap? Its a soft camera, if you can work around that then it is probably great. But explain to me why it isnt a must have for every journo photographer when it should be?

 

Not being defensive here, the rangefinder in any way shape or form has not been a must have (more a nice to have) for every 'journo photographer' for a very long time - the reflex has been and is the staple for these photographers since at least the arrival of the Nikon F, et al in 1959 of course we now have many others in the game. When rangefinders were popularized with photojournalist (Life and Look, etc) it was because of size as opposed to the TLR Rollei's in wide use during the 40s and 50s and into the 60s.

 

I find it interesting that Mydans working for Life as well Duncan both used Nikon S rangefinders and not Leica in the early 50s. There are some great shots of Mydans at the Nikon factory in 1950 in Robert Rotoloni's book on Nikon rangefinders. At a recent NHS gathering in Vancouver Mr. Rotoloni showed Mydans Nikon S which he had acquired.

 

If Canon or Nikon thought that they could sell a digital rangefinder in any quantity I think they would build it.

 

Best Regards. Terry

 

PS. I do have an S2 and S3 Nikon Rangefinder bodies and a couple of lenses. They are hammer heads to say the least.

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Guest stnami
If Canon or Nikon thought that they could sell a digital rangefinder in any quantity I think they would build it.
as the old fart journos retire and die out the new breed are chasing other forms of communication, for a start pictures that move and interact with the audience............... coming soon the ipod goes to war, battles it out with the big red RED / Index ..............phone home to mum
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STNAMI, Agreed, although RED doesn't quite cut it at this point. I think you are playing with SOUNDSLIDE on your website even though you are an old fart. The Washington Post photojournalists are doing some amazing things in the multimedia arena.

 

Best Regards. Terryl

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I love the way that post begins with: "I think too many generalisations are pushed around here sometimes" and then continues with the most incredible list which parodies the photojournalist's profession.

I mean:

"It's not perfect, so what is? Actually, on that basis, journos should probaly resort to sketching."

and:

"It takes a certain mental attitude to be able to use successfully, so that rules a lot of journos out."

 

And then the same old accusation that we've now read a thousand times from the M8 defenders through thick-and-thin: that "only a fool" would take the M8 into a war-zone.

 

Well strangely enough, there are a lot of photographers who would hope and trust that this one-time sturdy workhorse M-system could be taken into the worst firestorm, and still come out (scratched and shaken maybe) but still working, just like the M6 that Kamber has used in warzones on many occasions before.

 

Anyway erl - carry on characterizing the valid review as a 'whinge' (the internet's favorite and most often used put-down, when no real counter-argument works), it seems like you're happy with the camera. Many others are grateful to Kamber both for his review, and his excellent and fearless work - even if you see him only as a 'fool'.

 

Plasticman, I accept you are not in agreement with my views. That's fine, but please read and try to understand what the meaning of my comments are. I stand by my statements, as does Kamber stand by his. I believe you have takrn my remarks out of context. I fail to see why you disagree with my remarks.

 

I do take issue with the way you infer that I said Kamber is a fool. I did not say that. Clearly he is not a fool. For correction, please re-read my post.

 

No useful purpose is served by you and I continuing this debate on the Forum, but you are very welcome to PM me to reply, if you feel the need.

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The self-timer should be somewhere away from the power switch. The power switch should not even be the drive mode. The bottom plate SD change is silly.

 

And hereby lie some problems.

 

I actually like the self-timer being where it is - very handy for quite a lot of images I take on tripod - MUCH better than the fiddly effort on my 1D series Canons which I'm forever forgetting to change back after use.

 

The power switch is fine for me too, but for me you could certainly dump the C setting - I've used it once and probably won't again.

 

As for the bottom plate, well it seems that Leica view this as a potential safety feature as in a warning they apparently state: "LEICA M8 cameras can be damaged and image files can be damaged or lost, if the SD-card is removed while the camera is in operation" with reference to an aftermarket baseplate which allows the SD card to be accessed without removing the baseplate! Odd that this wasn't a problem with film but is with digital.

 

So, ergonomics it would appear are in the eye of the beholder, or something of that drift. Now I don't, won't, wouldn't shoot in a war zone, but I can most certainly say that if for some reason I had too, the M8 would NOT be a camera I'd take.

 

My criticism of this whole 'bashing' is that the M8 is too user demanding - not necessarily in use, but in file processing to extract real quality, as raw shooting is essential. If your demand is purely for jpegs then use something like a Canon 1DMkI/II/II and criticise these for being way too big and over featured and with overly heavy lenses.

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It's my believe that the core has to be reevaluated to make a change that works, I don't believe that some of those small corrections will make for a truly better cam, but that's just me.

 

Could it be that some of Kamber's bashing is due to him partly working against how the M8 is made to be used? (not counting in the stability issues)

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And hereby lie some problems.

 

I actually like the self-timer being where it is - very handy for quite a lot of images I take on tripod - MUCH better than the fiddly effort on my 1D series Canons which I'm forever forgetting to change back after use.

 

Well, to each their own, but I've often engaged the self-timer by accident. Very, very annoying when you're trying to shoot relatively quickly. Though I agree on the three finger wheel Canon madness, surely there is a middle ground: a dedicated power switch (that is a power switch, not a soft off) and a dedicated shooting mode switch--perhaps on the front of the camera (like the DMR). Self timer could easily be in the 'Set' menu without being hard to set.

 

{snipped}As for the bottom plate, well it seems that Leica view this as a potential safety feature as in a warning they apparently state: "LEICA M8 cameras can be damaged and image files can be damaged or lost, if the SD-card is removed while the camera is in operation" with reference to an aftermarket baseplate which allows the SD card to be accessed without removing the baseplate! Odd that this wasn't a problem with film but is with digital.

You have to be quite silly to remove any media card while the camera is writing to it. This is akin to opening the back of the camera while unexposed film is there...so I think the removable plate as a safety feature is totally and completely ridiculous.

 

The aftermarket baseplate does not replace my grip, alas, so it's useless for me.

So, ergonomics it would appear are in the eye of the beholder, or something of that drift.{snipped}

I respectfully disagree; good design and good user testing go hand in hand and are quite valuable. As an example, there were tons of poorly-selling MP3 players before the iPod, but its particular ergonomic design was almost instantly recognised as the most useful and easily used, to say nothing of cool-looking (I won't say the same about iTunes).

 

The M is a classic ergonomic design, and the M8 gets so many things right by virtue of being an "M" that it's remaining flaws stand out in stark relief, IMO.

 

My criticism of this whole 'bashing' is that the M8 is too user demanding - not necessarily in use, but in file processing to extract real quality, as raw shooting is essential. If your demand is purely for jpegs then use something like a Canon 1DMkI/II/II and criticise these for being way too big and over featured and with overly heavy lenses.

 

IMO you need to shoot RAW to extract the quality of any pro camera, Canon 1 series included. But that's my opinion, and if folks are happily shooting JPEG then bless 'em; I won't argue about it ;)

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