M9

[diogenis]

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Apart from the difficulties that would come with a sensor upgrade, but I forgive you your hyperbole , you are very right.

One must really admire Canon cum suis, for their cleverness and marketing. They have gotten 90% of the users on their "Newest and Bestest Syndrome" caroussel. But look at it realistically. What pro REALLY needs to upgrade his 1DsmkII to a 1DsmkIII? Just a very few, I guess. It is highly doubtful that it will earn him one dollar more. Resolution..a whopping 22 Mb Wait a minute - that is up a full 14% in linear print size. Actually it is less than double the print size at the same resolution than a D60. Is that, a bit less noise and a higher frame rate worth investing thousands of dollars? The same goes for amateurs. Not counting the high-end guys we find here , is Joe Average, who drops off his CF card at Wallmart for 10X15 cm prints going to see any difference in prints from his current 40D over his old Rebel 300? I don't think so.

 

What is it there to admire in Canon doing this (except the fact that they make very nice black boxes with holes, called cameras)? In fact it's not even their fault: consumerism within our western societies is at it's peak, so they exploit for as much as they can. And sadly, consumers don't even realize that this game is being played against them.

And look at the psychology behind most consumers/prosumers: we are so much affected, that instead of praising Leica for NOT making just another version of their firmware which woulda indicated that they finally made it right, we curse them for not making one new edition every other month. Because only then will we satisfy our lust for new products, new technologies, new software, face recognition algorithms, live views and whatnot.

Germans are not like that. They were and still are the economic locomotive of the whole Europe. I can imagine Leica's perspective to support their product, for years to come, and it is sad when I see the general spirit of people being against that instead.

As an example, take the sapphire glass option or the silent shutter: Leica went the hard way of upgrading it, even though they are a small factory.

If Canon or Nikon were faced with that dilemma, the answer would be MKIV or D4.

Leica customers cry, because the glass upgrade costs 750eur, while on the other side of the river you dont even have the option for upgrading your battery...

[jackal]

They have gotten 90% of the users on their "Newest and Bestest Syndrome" caroussel. But look at it realistically.

 

 

 

exactly, 35mm has almost forgotten what it is.... a small hobbyist/amateur format and used profesisonally only by the press who take crap pictuers anyway (and could be using plastic lenses and it wouldn't make much difference). Have you handled a D3 recently ? Seriously, what's it good for... the size is almost laughable. Stick on some of Nikons top glass like the 28-70 and you have a medium sized nuclear bomb to lug around supposedly in the palms of your hands.

 

Having said that, the press photographer is the one person I can understand sititng there in a grandstand all day long with a gargantuan 1dsMKIII and 30kg of other gear in a bag beside him, but who else should, would or needs to use a camera that sort of sensor size ! Maybe a wildlife photographer who needs big range and wants to crop heavily .. that's sort of justified.

 

As jaap says, its all now technology driven and the market has been brainwashed that way. Everything has to appeal to the techno geeks who are really more interested in the buttons and the flashing lights than the pictures and any artistry that they might posess (which is unlikely !). Few people need 22mp and even out of those who arguably do, they would probably be much wiser investing in a MF digital back or a hasselblad digital and get results that will p1ss on any canon/nikon every time. Few people need even half the features they put on these things as well. Its a technology war that has very little to do with photographres true needs anymore.

 

at the time when the M8 was developed I think that given that it was their first digital M, they came out rather well in that it matched top level D'SLRs for resolution and for subjective image quality and overall look & feel generally exceeded everything out there (largely because of M glass). Certainly, the iso quality of the M8 is seriously lacking behind (a fair bit worse than my old D200), but aside that, the camera is up to any 35mm challenge in terms of resolution and quality and any other buttons and endless menu systems that other cameras have you don't really need in any case and they only detract from the photographing process.

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[vanhulsenbeek]

You can do this stuff with the M8 and 50cron at f2.......

 

 

Thank you so much, LCT and Delander for for posting and for bringing this thread from rants back to basics. I like both pictures equally.

 

Wow, what photographers these guys are, and what camera's they have

[lct]

...Really nice pic lct...

Not mine sorry but Andree's 'Deepdiver' who posted several pics that good on GetDPI.com:

The GetDPI Workshop Forums - View Single Post - Zeiss or Nikkor Primes?

The GetDPI Workshop Forums - View Single Post - Zeiss or Nikkor Primes?

The GetDPI Workshop Forums - View Single Post - Zeiss 100mm

The GetDPI Workshop Forums - View Single Post - Zeiss 100mm

The GetDPI Workshop Forums - View Single Post - Zeiss 100mm

[Guest rweisz]

All one has to do is get forms from Leica Professional Services in New Jersey, fill them out and send them in with a few recent tear sheets and letters from two clients who have hired them for shoots. One of the forms is actually a "Loan Application" and asks for credit card information so it is on file if loaner equipment needs to be sent.

 

This takes a small amount of proactive effort on the part of the photographer. To expect people in New Jersey and Solms to automatically know who you are and treat you accordingly seems a bit arrogant.

 

I suspect referring to the New Jersey staff as "goons" probably isn't the best way to move to the top of their list.

 

Thanks but I already know how to register with LPS, having done so with NPS and CPS previously without anyone's help I don't know where you got the idea that I expect NJ or Solms to automatically know who I am. Seems you pulled that out of thin air just so you could insult my intelligence twice in the same post.

 

And "goons" is just the term I use for the NJ repair staff when I'm posting on a forum, so I don't get deleted for using the word I normally use. They earned my contempt because of their incompetence. Which BTW they never uttered a word of apology for.

[stunsworth]

Thanks but I already know how to register with LPS, having done so with NPS and CPS previously without anyone's help

 

Well we don't know that do we? The original poster was trying to help.

[fotografr]

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It is more than adequate to take photographs of cats, dogs, wives, tipsy colleagues, babies and fast cars - which is what 98.3% of the M8s owned on this forum do.

 

I'm done.

 

I think you need to spend a bit more time looking into the Photo Forum. It might change your attitude.

[gyoung]

What is it there to admire in Canon doing this (except the fact that they make very nice black boxes with holes, called cameras)? In fact it's not even their fault: consumerism within our western societies is at it's peak, so they exploit for as much as they can. And sadly, consumers don't even realize that this game is being played against them.

And look at the psychology behind most consumers/prosumers: we are so much affected, that instead of praising Leica for NOT making just another version of their firmware which woulda indicated that they finally made it right, we curse them for not making one new edition every other month. Because only then will we satisfy our lust for new products, new technologies, new software, face recognition algorithms, live views and whatnot.

Germans are not like that. They were and still are the economic locomotive of the whole Europe. I can imagine Leica's perspective to support their product, for years to come, and it is sad when I see the general spirit of people being against that instead.

As an example, take the sapphire glass option or the silent shutter: Leica went the hard way of upgrading it, even though they are a small factory.

If Canon or Nikon were faced with that dilemma, the answer would be MKIV or D4.

Leica customers cry, because the glass upgrade costs 750eur, while on the other side of the river you dont even have the option for upgrading your battery...

 

That only applies if (full frame) sensor size equals large camera, early aps size sensor cameras were large, now look at the D40 etc. or even the D300.

Most people want only 6x4 prints, for that 5mp is quite enough, but I bought good 35mm gear to make decent 20x16s from now and again, I can do that with M3, M6 even III, by silver halide or scanning from negs/trannies. BUT 10mp is not really enough if you reckon 300dpi for the print, you need more.

If I buy a camera with smaller than full frame sensor, all my lovely lenses are suddenly longer and on top of £3K for M8 I have to shell out for a new wide angle or two.

I will believe Leica is set on the smaller sensor when they bring out a nice compact 16mm/2.8 and a 25mm/2 which cover only the smaller sensor.

 

Gerry

[fotografr]

Thanks but I already know how to register with LPS, having done so with NPS and CPS previously without anyone's help I don't know where you got the idea that I expect NJ or Solms to automatically know who I am. Seems you pulled that out of thin air just so you could insult my intelligence twice in the same post.

 

 

I believe I got the idea from the fact that your post in which you exalted your credentials mentioned nothing about LPS. In case you forgot, here's what you wrote: "I'm a pro (card-carrying NPPA among others, former NPS and current CPS member) who sent his M8 to Germany." No mention of LPS, or did I just read it too quickly?

[delander †]

If I buy a camera with smaller than full frame sensor, all my lovely lenses are suddenly longer and on top of £3K for M8 I have to shell out for a new wide angle or two.

I will believe Leica is set on the smaller sensor when they bring out a nice compact 16mm/2.8 and a 25mm/2 which cover only the smaller sensor.

 

Gerry

 

If Leica bring out a FF digital M it could well be that the software corrections required to make your existing WA lenses useable will be just too excessive.

 

Jeff

[Guest rweisz]

I believe I got the idea from the fact that your post in which you exalted your credentials mentioned nothing about LPS. In case you forgot, here's what you wrote: "I'm a pro (card-carrying NPPA among others, former NPS and current CPS member) who sent his M8 to Germany." No mention of LPS, or did I just read it too quickly?

 

Maybe if you'd read it slower, and all the way to the end, you might have comprehended. Only you know the answer to that one. Here's what I wrote:

 

'm a pro (card-carrying NPPA among others, former NPS and current CPS member) who sent his M8 to Germany. The reason for that was after 3 times the goons in NJ couldn't manage to fix a stupid little switch on my M7, there's no way I believe they've got anyone competent to replace a shutter on an M8. At least not without screwing something else up in the process. What NJ does have plenty of expertise in is NJ attitude, which is why I don't have a loaner from them while my M8 is in Germany, and Germany wouldn't send me a loaner, they said I had to go through pro service in NJ. Vicious circle.

 

In case you still don't get it, if I join LPS I have to send it to NJ if I expect a loaner. Since I refuse to let NJ work on it, there isn't much point to belonging to LPS.

[jaapv]

Most people want only 6x4 prints, for that 5mp is quite enough, but I bought good 35mm gear to make decent 20x16s from now and again, I can do that with M3, M6 even III, by silver halide or scanning from negs/trannies. BUT 10mp is not really enough if you reckon 300dpi for the print, you need more.

 

 

Gerry

 

Conventional wisdom suggests this is correct. However, conventional wisdom in this case is totally wrong...

 

I'm really impressed with the M8 detail/Printing - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

[cirke]

for 20x16 and 300 dpi you need about 5000 x 7000 pixels , 35mp

[stunsworth]

for 20x16 and 300 dpi you need about 5000 x 7000 pixels , 35mp

 

Actually it's a lot nearer 20mp than 35mp.

 

And let's not forget that viewing distance comes into play. A print that size will be looked at from a greater distance than a 6x4 print, so the DPI can drop below 300.

 

I've printed A2 - sorry don't know the size in inches - and have been very, very pleased with the results.

[fotografr]

Maybe if you'd read it slower, and all the way to the end, you might have comprehended. Only you know the answer to that one. Here's what I wrote:

 

 

 

In case you still don't get it, if I join LPS I have to send it to NJ if I expect a loaner. Since I refuse to let NJ work on it, there isn't much point to belonging to LPS.

 

Sorry, but you're the one who doesn't get it. Leica NJ still sends the M8 to Germany, but the repair is expedited IFyou are a registered Leica Pro. The loaner also comes from NJ, which only makes sense. Would you expect Leica to send a loaner from Germany? If it makes you feel better to bitch about it rather than find out the facts, that's up to you.

[cirke]

Actually it's a lot nearer 20mp than 35mp.

 

And let's not forget that viewing distance comes into play. A print that size will be looked at from a greater distance than a 6x4 print, so the DPI can drop below 300.

 

I've printed A2 - sorry don't know the size in inches - and have been very, very pleased with the results.

 

A2 is nearlly 20x16

 

20 x 300 = 6000

16 x 300 = 4800

 

for an exhibition everybody will come to put the nose on your photo, I don't say you need 300 dpi but if you can have it it is not bad

[jaapv]

for 20x16 and 300 dpi you need about 5000 x 7000 pixels , 35mp

Before you start multiplying start reading... Here is a thread by a masterprinter:

There is no way film gets even close to that resolution.

I routinely print 60x80 cm from M8 files and the only chemical prints that show a similar detail are my old Cibachrome prints from Kodachrome 25. Or chemical prints from my 645 Ektachrome slides.

As soon as you start scanning the film and printing from that, you have lost any advantage it might have had and turned it into an inferior digital file. Grain aliasing, loss of microcontrast, everything. Film is great - but print chemically from real slides or B&W film.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/9022-30-x-40-inch-m8-prints.html

[cirke]

I routinely print 6 meters from 39MP , not myself of course ...

[stunsworth]

Just taking 35mm as an example, anyone with an M8 will realise that from a _resolution_ point of view the digital files walk all over scanned 35mm film - don't know about printed in a darkroom, I only have a scanner. That isn't to say that film printed to 20x16 looks bad, rather that the M8 is more than adequate to produce prints to the same size.

 

Agree that 300 DPI would be nice, but it isn't essential IMHO.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[cirke]

Agree that 300 DPI would be nice, but it isn't essential IMHO.

 

of course not but someone said 10mp is not really enough if you reckon 300dpi for the print, you need more.

 

for myself a 16 mp pixel camera is enough