LocalHero1953 Posted March 27 Share #1181 Posted March 27 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 11 minutes ago, SrMi said: If you change the shutter speed, aperture, or scene light, you will get different images, even if you adjust them in the post. If you change ISO, you won't, except where the sensor is not invariant and when clipping occurs. You can say the same about shutter speed - beyond a certain 'fast enough'. It's all true, but remains irrelevant. If you can take photos without considering ISO in your exposure, please do so. As far as I'm concerned S, A and ISO are all considered together to get the shot I want in the lighting conditions I'm faced with. Edited March 27 by LocalHero1953 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 27 Posted March 27 Hi LocalHero1953, Take a look here EVF M rumoured. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
graphlex Posted March 27 Share #1182 Posted March 27 2 hours ago, SrMi said: +1 Most cameras are only ISOless above the dual conversion point. There is a huge difference in deep shadow noise whether you on the right side of the dual conversion point. What is the the dual conversion point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted March 27 Share #1183 Posted March 27 27 minutes ago, graphlex said: What is the the dual conversion point? Most modern cameras have two readout modes: one with less full-well capacity and less read noise and the other with more full-well capacity and more noise. The former is better for high ISOs; the latter is better at base ISO. The ISO value at which the mode is switched is called the dual conversion gain point. In DR measurement graphs, that is manifested with a knick in the graph (M11's PDR, DCG point is at ISO 200). Aptina Whitepaper: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf DPR on Dual Conversion Gain 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobers Posted March 27 Share #1184 Posted March 27 I love the way that a discussion on a new camera dissolves into the deep details of how ISO works. Only on the Leica forum 🙂 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 27 Share #1185 Posted March 27 8 minutes ago, Tobers said: I love the way that a discussion on a new camera dissolves into the deep details of how ISO works. Only on the Leica forum 🙂 We'd all forget about ISO if we had any more leaked info to go on! At least we're not arguing about whether it can still be a M without a rangefinder. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 27 Share #1186 Posted March 27 27 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said: At least we're not arguing about whether it can still be a M without a rangefinder Really? Doesn't look like a Messsucher that thing...🙄 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrichie Posted March 27 Share #1187 Posted March 27 Advertisement (gone after registration) 52 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said: We'd all forget about ISO if we had any more leaked info to go on! At least we're not arguing about whether it can still be a M without a rangefinder. Its all good - idiots like me learn things from people who seem [hard to decipher sometimes] to know what they are doing. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
setuporg Posted March 27 Share #1188 Posted March 27 1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said: We'd all forget about ISO if we had any more leaked info to go on! At least we're not arguing about whether it can still be a M without a rangefinder. Of course we aren't because it isn't. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phojomatic Posted March 27 Share #1189 Posted March 27 I really hope those mockups went nowhere. Cold wet hands recently reminded me how much touch screens (iPhone 16) don’t really work in the field at times…tactile buttons do though. with regards to iso dials, I’d hope Leica could leave the m11 style in place as that’s a hallmark to the m10/m11 series. But otherwise, I think adding another dial to the right side overloads the usability (looking at you here Sony A1/93). I think the Q3 can get away with it bc the shutter speed dial is shifted vs m11. Have a look at both top down and it’s clear. maybe Leica could add back the m10 front button to change iso? also, with an EVF only…I guess the frame selector lever goes too? if so, predict some M240 throwback blowback!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 27 Share #1190 Posted March 27 5 hours ago, SrMi said: Most modern cameras have two readout modes: one with less full-well capacity and less read noise and the other with more full-well capacity and more noise. The former is better for high ISOs; the latter is better at base ISO. The ISO value at which the mode is switched is called the dual conversion gain point. In DR measurement graphs, that is manifested with a knick in the graph (M11's PDR, DCG point is at ISO 200). Aptina Whitepaper: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf DPR on Dual Conversion Gain 200 seems rather low. Panasonic uses ISO 640 as DCG point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted March 27 Share #1191 Posted March 27 (edited) 9 hours ago, Smogg said: In practice, highlight metering and -1EV guarantees the absence of burnt-out highlights. For landscape it might be a great solution. But I want to see the facial expression of my human subjects. To see how the light reflects of the subject, hair and clothes. And I want to be sure that I don’t have anything obtrusive in the frame to degrade my composition. For me the OVF of the M -10r and S3 works better than any EVF in my shooting scenarios. The ovf of my 6008 af is even better. With the 16 mpx PO db20 I have a view around my square frame line, almost like an M experience. Edited March 27 by ynp 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raizans Posted March 28 Share #1192 Posted March 28 Flower and branch recognition would be especially useful features. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 28 Share #1193 Posted March 28 13 hours ago, jaapv said: Rather practical to check for blown highlights, even if a jpg histogram is not as accurate as it could be. I like that the M(9) Monochrom has a DNG-based histogram. Unique in the Leica lineup AFAIK. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smogg Posted March 28 Share #1194 Posted March 28 5 hours ago, ynp said: For landscape it might be a great solution. But I want to see the facial expression of my human subjects. To see how the light reflects of the subject, hair and clothes. And I want to be sure that I don’t have anything obtrusive in the frame to degrade my composition. For me the OVF of the M -10r and S3 works better than any EVF in my shooting scenarios. The ovf of my 6008 af is even better. With the 16 mpx PO db20 I have a view around my square frame line, almost like an M experience. I only meant OVF and those cameras where I can turn off Exposure Preview. Of course I need to see the person I'm photographing. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted March 28 Share #1195 Posted March 28 8 hours ago, jaapv said: 200 seems rather low. Panasonic uses ISO 640 as DCG point. I always wondered why cameras do not switch to higher gain as soon as possible. Why wait until ISO 640? Hasselblad X2D also switches at ISO 200. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 28 Share #1196 Posted March 28 Possibly because of the expected subject brightness and contrast , for instance sunlight vs dull weather related to shadow noise behaviour and tonal curve. Simply a judgement call. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted March 28 Share #1197 Posted March 28 7 hours ago, SrMi said: I always wondered why cameras do not switch to higher gain as soon as possible. Why wait until ISO 640? Hasselblad X2D also switches at ISO 200. Because it would blow highlights? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted March 28 Share #1198 Posted March 28 20 minutes ago, BernardC said: Because it would blow highlights? The metering must account for changes in conversion gain, regardless of the threshold. It does not matter for manual exposure. The only thing that the higher gain prevents is the maximum exposure allowed before clipping. However, that limit is irrelevant if increased ISO causes the clipping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J S H Posted March 28 Share #1199 Posted March 28 I don't know all of the particulars, but it seems that sensor calibrations which result in a lower base ISO (64 on the M11), usually then have the second gain level kick in at a proportionately lower level. On some cameras (Sony A1 for instance), the ISO base and gain levels are also different for stills and Log video. On that note, I suspect this new camera will include video capabilities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted March 28 Share #1200 Posted March 28 15 hours ago, raizans said: Flower and branch recognition would be especially useful features. Don't be silly; a camera able to identify cats would be far more useful. [😆] 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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