Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}

[marchyman]

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16 hours ago, jaapv said:

TBH I only use the three AWBs, Sun, Cloud and Shadow  My camera profile in ACR is a dual illuminant based on Sun and Shadow  

Subject drift. I've never tried using a dual illuminant because 1) lazy, and 2) I was only thinking Sun and Tungsten and who uses Tungsten lights these days 🙂

Have you ever compared a dual illuminant with a single illuminant profile?  I suppose I should remove the Lazy factor and make my one dual illuminant profile for Sun/Shadow and see for myself.

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[jaapv]

Well, initial colour in ACR involves trying out a number of profiles. I’ve got a number of own profiles. Not as many as Adobe,though. In fact my dual illuminant ( sun/shadow) turns out to be very close to LUMIX embedded with AWB neutral. 

[IkarusJohn]

I find the whole “right” colour discussion a bit odd.  A colour filter array and camera processing is never going to be exactly right in all situations.  I find the “Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution” the best so far (despite the pretentious branding).  But isn’t the answer that any photograph is going to be a version of what we see. 

I recall reading somewhere when Ansel Adams reviewed some of his printing years later he was surprised to find many images very dark and brooding.  Not uncommon, would be my guess.  I doubt Eggleston’s tricycle was an accurate record of the colours or the temperature of the day - the cool look of that photograph will have been a processing decision.

I must say, I prefer Jono’s colour balance of his landscapes and skies.  I spend a lot of time looking at clouds and skies being a paraglider pilot always looking for lift, and that magenta cast is consistent with what I often see.  Clouds will often have that dark, menacing look with shades of purple.

[jaapv]

I tend to add some magenta to files with prominent cloudscapes  - both Magenta saturation (+9) and Blue hue (+ 13). .

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[lct]

I wonder if some magenta cast complainers don't confuse magenta with other colors here. Aside from blue and cyan, what color do you see mainly in this snap folks, magenta or red? Just curious. (M11, Apo-Telyt 135/3.4)

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[DadDadDaddyo]

 

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[SrMi]

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On 6/1/2024 at 1:20 AM, IkarusJohn said:

I find the whole “right” colour discussion a bit odd.  A colour filter array and camera processing is never going to be exactly right in all situations.  I find the “Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution” the best so far (despite the pretentious branding).  But isn’t the answer that any photograph is going to be a version of what we see. 

I recall reading somewhere when Ansel Adams reviewed some of his printing years later he was surprised to find many images very dark and brooding.  Not uncommon, would be my guess.  I doubt Eggleston’s tricycle was an accurate record of the colours or the temperature of the day - the cool look of that photograph will have been a processing decision.

I must say, I prefer Jono’s colour balance of his landscapes and skies.  I spend a lot of time looking at clouds and skies being a paraglider pilot always looking for lift, and that magenta cast is consistent with what I often see.  Clouds will often have that dark, menacing look with shades of purple.

+1

I do not think there are "right" colors. Colors can be either pleasing or accurate, and the two rarely overlap. 

[Antonio Russell]

On 5/28/2024 at 11:03 PM, jonoslack said:

Maybe, but I still think it's a crap concept (AWB in daylight) . . . I do use it in mixed artificial lighting (where there really isn't a right answer)

If shooting RAW it doesnt matter though does it? You can just change it later.

[sebas_]

My M11-P was sent to Leica for inspection. I have just got back the PDF from Leica customer support:

»The magenta cast is rectified by installing new reference values.«

Seems there was something wrong and Leica has addressed something
Looking forward to get my M11-P back from Wetzlar. 

[R4p70r]

6 minutes ago, sebas_ said:

My M11-P was sent to Leica for inspection. I have just got back the PDF from Leica customer support:

»The magenta cast is rectified by installing new reference values.«

Seems there was something wrong and Leica has addressed something
Looking forward to get my M11-P back from Wetzlar. 

This is going to be fun if all the M11 platform owners send in their camera to Wetzlar for the correction and this is the only way to do this.

[don daniel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb sebas_:

My M11-P was sent to Leica for inspection. I have just got back the PDF from Leica customer support:

»The magenta cast is rectified by installing new reference values.«

Seems there was something wrong and Leica has addressed something
Looking forward to get my M11-P back from Wetzlar. 

And are you satisfied with the new colors? Ah, sorry. You are still waiting for the return.

Edited June 4, 2024 by don daniel

[sebas_]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb R4p70r:

This is going to be fun if all the M11 platform owners send in their camera to Wetzlar for the correction and this is the only way to do this.

Yes. There should be an easier way if it is only a software fix. Maybe I am pretty early to the game with my M11-P. 
Or could it be, that some M11's have a "false" reference and not all...

Edited June 4, 2024 by sebas_

[lldd]

In this video the review (who owns both M11 and SL3) shot two photos side by side on each camera (at right around the 12:45 mark).  If both of these cameras share the same sensor, it seems clear that, let's just say, one of them is not like the other.   It would appear that the imaging chain between the two is not identical (and that may be the norm for two Leicas with the same sensor - I have no idea).  That said, the M11 clearly shows magenta, and it would be frustrating to use both cameras at an event and then have to color match them.

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by lldd

[Smogg]

17 minutes ago, lldd said:

In this video the review (who owns both M11 and SL3) shot two photos side by side on each camera (at right around the 12:45 mark).  If both of these cameras share the same sensor, it seems clear that, let's just say, one of them is not like the other.   It would appear that the imaging chain between the two is not identical (and that may be the norm for two Leicas with the same sensor - I have no idea).  That said, the M11 clearly shows magenta, and it would be frustrating to use both cameras at an event and then have to color match them.

 

I came to the conclusion that in Lightroom, in the menu, I simply select the standard daylight white balance if the shooting was during the day, ignoring the balance that is measured by the camera. This gives normal tint values and removes the ugly cast, returning the natural color to objects.

[jonoslack]

5 hours ago, sebas_ said:

My M11-P was sent to Leica for inspection. I have just got back the PDF from Leica customer support:

»The magenta cast is rectified by installing new reference values.«

Seems there was something wrong and Leica has addressed something
Looking forward to get my M11-P back from Wetzlar. 

That's really interesting - it sounds to me as if they have agreed to change the colour balance for people who ask for it - perhaps not such a stupid idea, I certainly won't be sending mine in as I love the colour I'm getting from it. 

I get it that some people don't like the colour from the M11 (fine - and it looks like Leica will deal with it). But I don't think there is any question of it being wrong, and I'm quite sure that most of the M11 users wouldn't dream of having it changed. 

Edited June 4, 2024 by jonoslack

[LBJ2]

4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

That's really interesting - it sounds to me as if they have agreed to change the colour balance for people who ask for it - perhaps not such a stupid idea, I certainly won't be sending mine in as I love the colour I'm getting from it. 

I get it that some people don't like the colour from the M11 (fine - and it looks like Leica will deal with it). But I don't think there is any question of it being wrong, and I'm quite sure that most of the M11 users wouldn't dream of having it changed. 

This is interesting. Was something broken the M11 that included a reference value change as part of the repair? Or, 

What are Leica M11 reference values?

If these "reference values" are standard to the M11 and result in how editing apps across the industry interpret color values from the M11, there is an entire ecosystem based upon M11 standard "reference values" Changing these values or customizing those values for one particular consumer request or a few, doesn't seem practical IMO, but then again maybe I am barking up the wrong tree.

Either way, I'd like to know more about these so called M11 "reference values," that might be changed upon customer request? 

[R4p70r]

If it is not feasible to update every single M11 that is sent by customers who wish to update the camera to those reference values, it is probably easier to create a software tool and provide it via download to read out the values and update the camera to the reference values at home by the owner.

[lct]

If "new reference values" means new instructions in DNG files, i would not mind given that i use raw converters that don't follow those instructions. Otherwise, "new reference values" could mean changes in the M11 color profile that would be applied to all M11 users including those who don't see or do like the so-called "magenta cast" and would have to change their post production work accordingly.  In the latter case, i'd prefer Leica to communicate on the subject rather than let rumors spread as they currently do.

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[hdmesa]

^ Sounds more like what Hasselblad does with their hardware-specific color calibration. Leica may be able to do this manually by request.

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, jonoslack said:

That's really interesting - it sounds to me as if they have agreed to change the colour balance for people who ask for it - perhaps not such a stupid idea, I certainly won't be sending mine in as I love the colour I'm getting from it. 

I get it that some people don't like the colour from the M11 (fine - and it looks like Leica will deal with it). But I don't think there is any question of it being wrong, and I'm quite sure that most of the M11 users wouldn't dream of having it changed. 

I have a suspicion that your M11's sensor hardware is just better matched to Leica's default color reference values. Leica doesn't custom calibrate each camera like Hasselblad, so some M11 units may deviate far enough from the assumed color response to need an adjustment.

I think it's pretty cool that Leica was willing and able to do that for a customer.

Edited June 5, 2024 by hdmesa