Did the May 2024 firmware update 2.1.1. solve your M11 freezing problems?

[TeleElmar135mm]

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Herr Barnack:

It is beyond all reason that 29 months after the release of the M11, buyers are still having $9200 USD cameras come out of the box that are dysfunctional. 🙄

No, the M11 is not dysfunctional, this is a deliberate error implementation to test how high the level of tolerance of a group of buyers is. This is done in collaboration with the "Center for Leadership and Behavior in Organizations (CLBO). This is a practice-oriented research institute at the Goethe University Frankfurt. It brings together scientists from economics, psychology and sociology who conduct interdisciplinary research and teaching on topics of human resource management and advise."  That also explains the 9200 bucks ...

Frankly, it's a shame not to be able to find a solution in this time. Even the gestation period of African elephants only lasts around 22 months and that is the longest there is ...

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[MikeW]

6 hours ago, crons said:

The only thing to take from that is to switch it to OFF and put the battery on a charger.

So, how are you moving files from IN to your PC?

[crons]

4 hours ago, MikeW said:

So, how are you moving files from IN to your PC?

Turning off charging disables USB communications entirely? The way I put my files in a computer is I take the SD card out, put it in a USB card reader and plug it into the computer. The battery I take out and charge in a charger that plugs into the wall. 

It's no harm plugging your camera into a computer ( i wouldnt try to charge anything fully that way as itll take forever). The problem is plugging a camera to a USB plug and then to a wall thereby using your camera as a battery charger. 

Another way I wouldnt have an issue is plugging your camera into a portable charger. That could be a good idea to charge your camera on the go. Plug the portable charger into the wall to charge that and then use the portable charger to plug in your camera to charge the battery. 

I say do not ever plug your camera to a USB plug to plug it into a wall directly like your camera is a charger. 

But like I said ... see below 

7 hours ago, Malabito said:

If someone fries their camera by charging it via USB, it's not the person's fault; it's Leica's for having a terrible design. Nowadays, it's almost impossible to damage a device via USB charging. It's not the 90s anymore.

I personally don't do it because I'd rather avoid the risk of the camera falling from the table.

 

7 hours ago, mattcheol said:

I mean it's literally a feature. to charge with USB C in body? that way when you are traveling you don't need to bring the charger with you. Basically everything these days charges via USB-C. So I sorta hear what you are saying, but just can't think that is a valid concern. 

 

7 hours ago, Edax said:

Leica M11 charging-in-camera is early compliance with EU directive 2022/2380. The leaked M11-D manual shows that it will come without a charger in the box, so expect all next M's to come without a charger. 

 

5 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Unless there was a fault in the camera or charger this is almost impossible to do. ANY camera with in camera charging ability has protocols and circuitry to draw only what it needs and to refuse charge if the charger is incompatible. It’s even less likely now with the USBC PD protocols that most modern devices use, where the charger and the device talk to each other.

I have at least 20 cameras that charge in camera and have never had a problem like this. Even my old RX1RII still happily charges over USB. As does my original Leica T. As for my M11 and M11M? The chargers are still in the box. 2 years and zero issues.

Gordon

As I predicted just as if on cue... that's why I ended my post saying ignore me and keep using your camera as a charger. I just want to have the satisfaction of saying I told you so. That's all. 

Edited June 19, 2024 by crons

[DadDadDaddyo]

(sigh....)

[crons]

33 minutes ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

(sigh....)

Exactly what came out of me when I read all those replies. Didn't I JUST say go ahead and keep doing it?

[MikeW]

Please bear in mind I have no desire to change your mind or anyone else's.

6 hours ago, crons said:

Turning off charging disables USB communications entirely? The way I put my files in a computer is I take the SD card out, put it in a USB card reader and plug it into the computer. The battery I take out and charge in a charger that plugs into the wall

When you turn USB Charging off in the M11 menu, it's all software; all that circuitry is still there. A bit is flipped, a gate opens or closes, and power flows or stops flowing through the charging circuit. That doesn't mean no current is being drawn across the USB line for other purposes—like PTP file transfer—while connected.

Quote

It's no harm plugging your camera into a computer 

With your stated concern, you shouldn't be sanguine about this. The computer is providing a signal or power or both; it remains the job of the charging circuit in the device to do the rest. The primary difference between the computer and the wall wart is there *may* (probably) be better DC stability and filtration produced by the power supply system in the computer. Still, on a typical desktop, you've got a lot of components plugged into the computer, some bringing their own noise and other issues to the system.

Like wall warts, various computer USB ports meet various USB interface standards and offer varying currents from 900mA to 1.5A to 3.0A and varying voltage tolerance ranges depending on which standard is implemented. The M11 implements the USB 3.1 Gen 2 standard and, therefore, is able to tolerate a wider voltage tolerance by design and per the standard. The USB standard also provides for voltage and current negotiation.

It isn't hard to design a wall wart that provides 5V+/- and sufficient current (Leica's wart is 2A) and stability to meet the power delivery tolerances per the standard.

That said, I wouldn't use a no-name USB power supply (wall wart) direct to the camera or to the battery charger unless desperate. 

Quote

 

Another way I wouldnt have an issue is plugging your camera into a portable charger.

 

So what you are really saying is that you fear mains power? Or do you fear Leica's engineering abilities? Both?

Again, how do you charge your phone?

In some parts of the world fearing your AC power in your home or at work is quite legit. But I doubt many Leica owners have that issue.

Quote

I say do not ever plug your camera to a USB plug to plug it into a wall directly like your camera is a charger. 

But your camera isn't "like a charger", your M11 (and others) is a charger; it was intentionally designed to be and has an appropriate lithium-ion battery charging circuit built into it. As others have pointed out, the EU will prevent Leica from shipping a discrete battery charger in the future with the camera. Sony stopped doing that with some cameras many years ago simply because they were cheap.

How do you charge your (very likely) expensive cell phone? Do you hot-melt the glue attaching the screen, disassemble it, remove the lithium-poly battery, and charge it on an industrial charger? You don't; you plug it into something, probably a wall wart feeding a USB cable.

The same charging circuitry in your phone exists within an M11. And will exist in the M11-D, M12, M13...

All of your various USB-chargeable devices are, in fact, lithium-ion battery chargers; USB is just the source of power. The devices need to provide this capability, and in the EU, they are mandated to. Fortunately, over the years, it has become dirt-simple to implement robust charging subsystems, even in the tiniest of devices, like a phone or a much bigger M11.

I choose not to fret about USB charging and worry only about two things related to power/charging: 1) physical damage to connectors on a device like a phone or M11 over many years of use, and 2) the use of third-party battery packs in my Leica or any other camera or device. Addressing the latter, I have never and will not purchase third-party battery packs for any device or camera and I have technical experience backing up that opinion.

For my part, I do not regularly charge the M11 via USB, primarily because I rotate two battery packs. I almost always use the tiny M11 charger; I have even carried it in the field to use with a power bank while on the go so as not to tie down the camera. When I do charge the camera via USB directly, I don't worry about it. 

Edited June 19, 2024 by MikeW

[lct]

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You could well demonstrate that my M11 is a toaster, I would never plug it into the mains, but it's just me 😄

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by lct

[crons]

20 minutes ago, lct said:

You could well demonstrate that my M11 is a toaster, I would never plug it into the mains, but it's just me 😄

 

Do not ... Never ever. But hey. To each their own. 

[crons]

1 hour ago, MikeW said:

Again, how do you charge your phone?

My Leica isn't a phone either. You can say my Leica is like my phone. Like my TV. My Leica is in fact a charger. It says so in the instructions. 

Do not plug in your camera to a wall like it's a charger. Your Leica isn't charger. 

But it is! I've been doing it for years! Hahaha. 

I didn't say anything but go ahead and use your leica as a charger.  Have at it. 

Edited June 19, 2024 by crons

[_Alex_]

This thread has gone off the rails. Someone moderate, please. I am actually interested in firmware update results for the folks that had problems with their M11 series. 

[lct]

Sorry for the out of topic.

[Herr Barnack]

14 hours ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

No, the M11 is not dysfunctional, this is a deliberate error implementation to test how high the level of tolerance of a group of buyers is. This is done in collaboration with the "Center for Leadership and Behavior in Organizations (CLBO). This is a practice-oriented research institute at the Goethe University Frankfurt. It brings together scientists from economics, psychology and sociology who conduct interdisciplinary research and teaching on topics of human resource management and advise."  That also explains the 9200 bucks ...

Frankly, it's a shame not to be able to find a solution in this time. Even the gestation period of African elephants only lasts around 22 months and that is the longest there is ...

@TeleElmar135mm Appreciate your humor, feel your pain.

The fact that a baby African elephant could be conceived and birthed is less time than it has taken the Center for Leadership and Behavior in Organizations to conduct its research and for Leica to set the M11 cameras right is at once sad, tragic, unbelievable and in a perverse way - downright comical.

Perhaps the august gents at CLBO should conduct some research into the prevalence of masochistic compulsions in Leica M adherents.  If sales begin to slump, perhaps Leica could provoke an M camera buying stampede by coming out with the Leica M 11-P-SM kit, which would include alligator clips to be applied to the buyer's nipples or scrotum to enhance their enjoyment of the M 11-P-SM shooting experience.

[crons]

3 hours ago, _Alex_ said:

This thread has gone off the rails. Someone moderate, please. I am actually interested in firmware update results for the folks that had problems with their M11 series. 

It isn't off the rails. If you follow the thread some are theorizing these freezing problems could originate from hardware faults due to people charging their batteries using their camera as battery chargers. 

And my response to it is stop using your camera as a charger plugging it into a wall. But people will keep doing it so there's really no hope of that happening. 

3 hours ago, lct said:

Sorry for the out of topic.

It's not. We are all talking about possible things that are leading to all these freezes since the M11 came out that seems to never stop with any iteration of this camera. 

Yes there were firmware issues and some cameras needed to be erased completely, and also a few cases due to sd cards. That can happen. But IMO there may be something wrong with the hardware. Be it from the new "your camera is a charger" feature or faulty (or incompatible?) parts from new manufacturers. 

[lct]

The good old faulty hardware theory resurfaces at each firmware update and curiously enough early M11's like mine go on working flawlessly. Would be a novelty if freezes come from plugging cameras into mains but it sounds too funny to be true.

[MikeW]

Fujifilm X100s, the first version, had thousands of bad shutters. The company refused to acknowledge the problem - handling customer issues piecemeal and not evenly around the world, until enough of us made noise (I was one).

A radio transceiver sold by Motorola to law enforcement and fire departments worldwide had bad electrolytic capacitors that would fail over a long period of use and render the radios inoperable (but repairable).

A somewhat less distinguished than Motorola, maker of handheld radios, included a bad filter component in one of their products; I sent 100 units to be repaired - every single one failed within a couple of years of going into service.

These things do happen. Is hardware failure the case with the M11? It doesn't feel like it to me but that is at best a partly educated guess of mine based on reading reports from affected users.

Mine has been fine, so I can't help in documenting failure.

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Herr Barnack:

(...)

  If sales begin to slump, perhaps Leica could provoke an M camera buying stampede by coming out with the Leica M 11-P-SM kit, which would include alligator clips to be applied to the buyer's nipples or scrotum to enhance their enjoyment of the M 11-P-SM shooting experience.

No Problem, they had only to put a LED into the  red bottom of the camera and then they had the pefect (?) "red-light - district"  

... or in a German blog: "Don't feel like taking photos? That's part of the hobby " ... and in a Sigma Germany blog post: "When taking photos is no longer fun"

[justj]

Leica definitely thought this one through. By removing the base plate, we can now easily remove the battery and put it back to de-freeze the camera. Thank you, Leica!

[jaapv]

This thread is meant to report success or otherwise of the firmware update. Please refrain from derailing it by speculation about the cause and other unrelated subjects. There are other threads for the purpose. 

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[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

This thread is meant to report success or otherwise of the firmware update. Please refrain from derailing it by speculation about the cause and other unrelated subjects. There are other threads for the purpose. 

So far it has taken @lct 38 posts, just in this thread, to address this simple question, and remind everyone for the 200+ time (counting other threads) that his M11 works ok. 

Can we make it a sticky?

Jeff

[MikeW]

In keeping with the thread topic, I'm running the May firmware update on my #588**** M11-P / Dec 2023 body. 

At the time I did the update I did a factory reset and re-created my user profiles and other settings.

I had one freeze prior to the update; none since.

The freeze happened as I was trying to update using the SD card method; I powered the camera off, popped out the card; restarted the camera - all good; did the update via FOTOS and patiently allowed it to complete. No issues observed since the update.