The future of the SL system and why there is no roadmap for lenses

[Jon Warwick]

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If we ever get an S4 medium format mirrorless, it will be interesting what Leica has learnt and decides to emphasise in terms of those new lenses with regards to size, speed, rendering, etc ….it’s over 7 years since the SL primes were announced, perhaps latest technology and greater experience (from the SL system) can tick more boxes simultaneously?

Edited March 27, 2024 by Jon Warwick

[tom0511]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb geronimosan:

Well, I mean, to be fair, you knew before you bought the Leica body that in their lens line-up they didn't have a 85/1.4 portrait smooth rendering lens, a 100 macro, a 180/2.0 SL prime, a 21-50/4.0 zoom, a Leica 70280/2.8 fast AF lens, a 35/1.4, nor a 28/1.4 or 1.8, so is it their fault for not having the very specific lenses custom tailored to your individual personal needs or is it your fault for buying into a camera ecosystem when you had very specific needs that you knew Leica didn't provide?

When I bought into the system there was just the 2490 and 90-280. So yes - I knew upfront for sure.

If I could not have afforded to buy the SL as an additional camera and keep my Nikon DSLR for sports and action (today Canon when I switched to mirrorless), I would not have bought into the SL-System, as nice as it is.

 

I dont claim Leica for anything. I still say it would be nice to have some more interesting lenses in the system and it would be nice to hear more often about their future plans.

 

[tom0511]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb geronimosan:

Now, that is a great and specific list.  In fact, as I was gathering together my decades of Canon gear to sell, your first three lenses in the list is exactly what I realized was missing as well.  That said, I will make do with my 90-280 set of lenses to handle portraits and macros. The tilt-shift would be great to have.

No company offers every imaginable needed lens for every individual.  I've got the 24-280 set of SL zooms and that extra reach is needed for my work. As far as I know, only Pentax offers a 24-90, and no other company offers a 90-280, yet I'm not running around crying that Nikon, Canon, Sony, and Panasonic don't have enough lenses and that they don't care about their customers. 

/shrug.  Some people will simply never be happy.

 

Canon and Nikon offer 24-120/24-105 mm lenses, Canon even a 24-105/2.8. Each brand offers a 70-200 with constant f2.8 which is what you want for inddor sports.

Canon even offers a 100-300/2.8. Not talking about all the primes available, even the RF system is younger than the SL system. Again, I am a Leica fan, and really like the SL system, I still can wish for some more options. 

[Planetwide]

14 hours ago, geronimosan said:

Okay, well, none of your responses are quantifiable or qualifiable, so I'm guessing no amount, type, or quality of lens will satisfy your argument.

That said, I took a quick look at companies and their mirrorless 50mm offerings:

• Leica:  3 x SL 50mm lenses
• Canon:  2 x RF 50mm lenses
• Nikon: 3 x Nikkor Z 50mm lenses
• Sigma:  4 x 50mm lenses (their 4th announced, literally, hours ago and only available as pre-order)

So, in looking at your favored lens, Leica offers the same number, and much better quality, as the other companies. I'm not sure how you are coming to the conclusion that Leica doesn't have enough lenses and, evidently, hates their customers.

One focal length does not a system make. Where are the 24mm primes? Where are the faster options: Can you say Summilux's or Noctilux's? How about a 28-70mm F2.0? 70-200mm F2.8? Maybe a tilt shift lens or two? 

[Cobram]

14 hours ago, tom0511 said:

Personally I wish more interesting lenses from Leica. Not so many rebadged old M design lenses for premium price, but give us some innovative useful lenses. Please!!!

Give us a 85/1.4 portrait smooth rendering lens, give us a 100 macro, give us a 180/2.0 SL prime, give us a 21-50/4.0 zoom, give us a Leica 70280/2.8 fast AF lens...and a 35/1.4 as well as a 28/1.4 or 1.8.

Give us nice lenses instead of limited luxury special editions.

Sigma lenses are nice, but I didn't buy a Leica body to use Sigma lenses,

What a great idea: 21-50/4.0. Perfect lens for hiking in Alps and family trips with kids. AF needs to be similar to 24-90 performance.

When comparing photos taken with SL Lux 50 vs M Lux 50 I can not comprehend the AF is the only reason for such a huge lens (SL Lux). I adore my 24-90 and somehow understand why it is bulky but for SL Lux I'm not convinced... So yes... size and weight of some lenses is IMHO not justified.

But at the end I'm really happy with Leica offerings in SL mount. 24-90 zoom fulfills my needs very very well (unlike any other zoom) I'm really impressed and happy with its performance and usefulness. APO primes are managable regarding size, but AF speed needs to be improved IMHO.

As per R&D times of Leica and other EU companies: I think constant struggle with cost improvement, lack of workforce across Europe as well as geopolitical problems are all related to long development times. It is similar in other industries for example automotive (Chinese BYD vs European manufacturers), electronics,... Focus is last decades within EU was on law, economics,... not engineering. Salaries of engineers in EU are well below lawyers, PR agents,... so we can expect slow AF in future Leica lenses but nice PR and (legaly) well defined user manual and warranty exceptions 😅 

[Smogg]

1 hour ago, Jon Warwick said:

If we ever get an S4 medium format mirrorless, it will be interesting what Leica has learnt and decides to emphasise in terms of those new lenses with regards to size, speed, rendering, etc ….it’s over 7 years since the SL primes were announced, perhaps latest technology and greater experience (from the SL system) can tick more boxes simultaneously?

Indeed, I am very curious: What will Leica be able to offer to the medium format camera market that the two current major players in this market do not have? Fujifilm has occupied the mass segment, Hasselblad has occupied the premium segment. Is there enough room left for one more player? Leica will have to invent something new to attract customers. Leica will not be able to compete with Fujifilm in terms of software, which means it will have to take a piece of the pie from Hasselblad. Let's see. Competition from developers is beneficial for consumers.

[Qwertynm]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb tom0511:

Again, I am a Leica fan, and really like the SL system, I still can wish for some more options. 

Just keep in mind that Canon is the market leader in MILC with roughly 50% of the share whilst Leica is probably in the low single digits. Canon operates at a much larger scale than Leica and can churn out more lenses in less time. There are other lens manufacturers that produce for L mount, Sigma for example. They have small, relatively lightweight primes that I envy as a Canon RF user. I agree with you, I too wish for some more options. And they will probably come. In due time.

[keeping_a_balance]

Generally my love of holding Leica in my hand takes all rational decision making away.  I have a love hate with the SL: Love holding it in my hand and shooting with it, and the menus is quite nice to navigate vs peers... Hate: size and weight... I have consequently bought a small Sony to compensate. Like so many other have stated on the forum, IQ is great on Sony weight is less, lenses are cheaper and there are so many lens options you can go a bit mad. (and newer menus are not half bad and colors are good). 

But Leica is Leica and there is nothing quite like shooting one.  If I have used the sony 2 days in a row, I will move back to Leica for 3-4...  Travel will be the exception though and there Sony will be chosen for non photography oriented trips.

I have 2 APOs and one Leica zoom and about 8 sigma lenses mix of art and c primes and one zoom.

I am  more than satisfied that Sigma and Panasonic are constantly releasing lenses that I don't really need but keep the L mount alive.  The addition of other brands joining the alliance is also good for me and gives me hope that the L mount wont just disappear.

From a biz perspective I don't see how Leica will ever change to give us so many more lenses.  With a major shareholder being a PE firm I would guess they want to max profit with current infrastructure before selling the biz for a nice margin - or keep the biz while cash generation is good without investing too much?

Leica  have very tight supply on new products with higher demand which is generally what you want in a biz.  - this can backfire one day if you piss off your clients too much, but right now with F1 drivers running around the world with Q2's and Q3, all "influencers talking about at least the Q series"  and some of Leica's smart marketing they are keeping this balance in their favor.

Until the business is sold   - unless it's a philanthropist with a love of photography - I don't see how they take a step forward to really start to compete with the others in terms of mass production offering us alternatives that some of us want and have and will continue rely  on their L Mount partners to provide these options people are asking for.

Maybe I am wrong.

I do  agree with comments about open communication from Leica, discussing more with their public and taking a bit more of a Sigmaesque approach from their leadership team.  

BTW that new 50mm 1.2 from Sigma looks quite nice.  But I don't need it so...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2024 by keeping_a_balance

[Simone_DF]

47 minutes ago, Cobram said:

so we can expect slow AF in future Leica lenses but nice PR and (legaly) well defined user manual and warranty exceptions 😅 

Autofocus for Leica is developed by Panasonic and fine-tuned by Leica

[geronimosan]

6 hours ago, tom0511 said:

Canon and Nikon offer 24-120/24-105 mm lenses, Canon even a 24-105/2.8. Each brand offers a 70-200 with constant f2.8 which is what you want for inddor sports.

Canon even offers a 100-300/2.8. Not talking about all the primes available, even the RF system is younger than the SL system. Again, I am a Leica fan, and really like the SL system, I still can wish for some more options. 

And yet none of those you listed are what I said they didn't have - a 24-90 and a 90-280.  If you want to be precise and picky in your demands of very specific lenses, then I will be too - Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Panasonic do not offer a 24-90 nor 90-280 lens. And Leica does. Period.

Bottom line is that you lot will never be happy.  Leica could come out with 20 new lenses and you'd still go through the lists of other brands and cherrypick the remaining missing lenses and complain.  And, very likely, all these lenses you people are listing, I doubt you would even buy them all even if they existed.  One  responder proclaimed their love for 50mm lenses, has 5 of them they said, yet only owns one of the three Leica 50mm lenses. Only one of three, yet they want Leica to make even more 50mm variants! No - my sense is that some folks here are simply looking to complain.

Worse, you don't seem to understand the implications of what you are asking for.  These other companies mass produce lower quality lenses with lower levels of QC. Leica hand crafts their lenses.  In order for them to expand their lineup to the extent to which you lot are wanting, they would have to start mass producing using other lower quality means, which lowers the quality standard and bar that Leica is known for.  It's like going to a small, boutique, higher priced restaurant known for its one-page menu of high quality, gourmet, unique, delicious food with great albeit slightly slower service and then complaining because they don't have a drive-thru window or serve toys with their kid's meals "like other restaurants do".

I'll bow out of this thread and leave the complaining to the gearheads, the Sony mongers, the pixel peepers, and the whitepaper/tech spec data miners.  I've got Leica gear to enjoy and wonderful moments to capture.

Edited March 27, 2024 by geronimosan

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, geronimosan said:

And yet none of those you listed are what I said they didn't have - a 24-90 and a 90-280.  If you want to be precise and picky in your demands of very specific lenses, then I will be too - Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Panasonic do not offer a 24-90 nor 90-280 lens. And Leica does. Period.

Bottom line is that you lot will never be happy.  Leica could come out with 20 new lenses and you'd still go through the lists of other brands and cherrypick the remaining missing lenses and complain.  And, very likely, all these lenses you people are listing, I doubt you would even buy them all even if they existed.  One  responder proclaimed their love for 50mm lenses, has 5 of them they said, yet only owns one of the three Leica 50mm lenses. Only one of three, yet they want Leica to make even more 50mm variants! No - my sense is that some folks here are simply looking to complain.

Worse, you don't seem to understand the implications of what you are asking for.  These other companies mass produce lower quality lenses with lower levels of QC. Leica hand crafts their lenses.  In order for them to expand their lineup to the extent to which you lot are wanting, they would have to start mass producing using other lower quality means, which lowers the quality standard and bar that Leica is known for.  It's like going to a small, boutique, higher priced restaurant known for its one-page menu of high quality, gourmet, unique, delicious food with great albeit slightly slower service and then complaining because they don't have a drive-thru window or serve toys with their kid's meals "like other restaurants do".

I'll bow out of this thread and leave the complaining to the gearheads, the Sony mongers, the pixel peepers, and the whitepaper/tech spec data miners.  I've got Leica gear to enjoy and wonderful moments to capture.

Ah yes, gaslighting. The typical fanboy response. 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, geronimosan said:

And yet none of those you listed are what I said they didn't have - a 24-90 and a 90-280.  If you want to be precise and picky in your demands of very specific lenses, then I will be too - Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Panasonic do not offer a 24-90 nor 90-280 lens. And Leica does. Period.

Bottom line is that you lot will never be happy.  Leica could come out with 20 new lenses and you'd still go through the lists of other brands and cherrypick the remaining missing lenses and complain.  And, very likely, all these lenses you people are listing, I doubt you would even buy them all even if they existed.  One  responder proclaimed their love for 50mm lenses, has 5 of them they said, yet only owns one of the three Leica 50mm lenses. Only one of three, yet they want Leica to make even more 50mm variants! No - my sense is that some folks here are simply looking to complain.

Worse, you don't seem to understand the implications of what you are asking for.  These other companies mass produce lower quality lenses with lower levels of QC. Leica hand crafts their lenses.  In order for them to expand their lineup to the extent to which you lot are wanting, they would have to start mass producing using other lower quality means, which lowers the quality standard and bar that Leica is known for.  It's like going to a small, boutique, higher priced restaurant known for its one-page menu of high quality, gourmet, unique, delicious food with great albeit slightly slower service and then complaining because they don't have a drive-thru window or serve toys with their kid's meals "like other restaurants do".

I'll bow out of this thread and leave the complaining to the gearheads, the Sony mongers, the pixel peepers, and the whitepaper/tech spec data miners.  I've got Leica gear to enjoy and wonderful moments to capture.

Ah yes, gaslighting. The typical fanboy response. 

[tom0511]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb geronimosan:

And yet none of those you listed are what I said they didn't have - a 24-90 and a 90-280.  If you want to be precise and picky in your demands of very specific lenses, then I will be too - Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Panasonic do not offer a 24-90 nor 90-280 lens. And Leica does. Period.

Bottom line is that you lot will never be happy.  Leica could come out with 20 new lenses and you'd still go through the lists of other brands and cherrypick the remaining missing lenses and complain.  And, very likely, all these lenses you people are listing, I doubt you would even buy them all even if they existed.  One  responder proclaimed their love for 50mm lenses, has 5 of them they said, yet only owns one of the three Leica 50mm lenses. Only one of three, yet they want Leica to make even more 50mm variants! No - my sense is that some folks here are simply looking to complain.

Worse, you don't seem to understand the implications of what you are asking for.  These other companies mass produce lower quality lenses with lower levels of QC. Leica hand crafts their lenses.  In order for them to expand their lineup to the extent to which you lot are wanting, they would have to start mass producing using other lower quality means, which lowers the quality standard and bar that Leica is known for.  It's like going to a small, boutique, higher priced restaurant known for its one-page menu of high quality, gourmet, unique, delicious food with great albeit slightly slower service and then complaining because they don't have a drive-thru window or serve toys with their kid's meals "like other restaurants do".

I'll bow out of this thread and leave the complaining to the gearheads, the Sony mongers, the pixel peepers, and the whitepaper/tech spec data miners.  I've got Leica gear to enjoy and wonderful moments to capture.

yes you are correct, I mentioned a 24-105/2.8 instead a 24-90/2.8-40 and a 100-300/2.8 instead of a 90-280/2.8-4.0. My fault

You have no idea what makes me happy and what I do understand and what I do not understand.

For you Leica might be a boutique gourmet company, for me it is just a camera maker. I don't want a gourmet boutique product , I want a good product. 

I appreciate Leica build quality and optical performance, and the simple user interface. That's why I use Leica and love it. And in regards of "handcrafted high quality", don't underestimate good lenses from other brand. I believe it is good for a company like Leica, if people are challenging. 

 

Edited March 27, 2024 by tom0511

[Planetwide]

On 3/27/2024 at 1:58 PM, geronimosan said:

Worse, you don't seem to understand the implications of what you are asking for.  These other companies mass produce lower quality lenses with lower levels of QC. Leica hand crafts their lenses.  In order for them to expand their lineup to the extent to which you lot are wanting, they would have to start mass producing using other lower quality means, which lowers the quality standard and bar that Leica is known for. 

I would disagree with that statement. The other companies are catching up or even exceeding the lens quality shown in the SL ZOOMS. Specifically, the Canon 100-300mm is every bit as good as the Leica, perhaps even better, after all it's a constant F2.8 - but it costs a lot more. The Canon 24-105mm is better than the Leica, but the Leica is 5 years older, and nearly as good. Which is a testament to Leica design and build.

Both of the Canon's are professional workhorse lenses. Both are hand built, and will easily last as long as the Leica equivalent lenses.  The point is, people, including myself, want to buy new Leica designed and built lenses. I don't see why voicing this desire is a problem...

[frame-it]

On 3/27/2024 at 11:01 PM, Simone_DF said:

Autofocus for Leica is developed by Panasonic and fine-tuned by Leica

maybe they need to outsource the fine tuning too 🤣

 

[BernardC]

54 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

Specifically, the Canon 100-300mm is every bit as good as the Leica, perhaps even better, after all it's a constant F2.8 - but it costs a lot more. The Canon 24-105mm is better than the Leica, but the Leica is 5 years older, and nearly as good.

No one doubts that Canon makes great lenses, especially in the super-telephoto segment (over $10,000). If you need such a lens, and have the budget, your choice is Canon, Arriflex (their 65-300 costs $75,000 at B&H), or possibly an old Nikon F-mount 120-300 (discontinued). Some MFT lenses offer similar speed and field of view, if weight is a concern.

[chrismuc]

3 hours ago, frame-it said:

maybe they need to outsource the fine tuning too 🤣

 

‘fine tuned’ ? 
in the very best case it is as fast and reliable as the equivalent Panasonic camera 

[Manicouagan1]

I am a zoom lens user by choice.   Leica started out the L system with unique approach to the "holy trinity" of lenses that form the f2.8 core (1-24mm, 24-70mm and 70-200mm) plus the general travel lens (24-105 or 120) at f4 of the of the Nikon, Canon and Sony Systems.   Those long ago released three Leica lenses (15-35mm, 24-90mm and 90-280mm) have edge sharpness in a whole another league than the competition.   To my mind Leica already made and I owned state of the art prime lenses with my M system that met my photographic needs.  For me I bought one adapter and I had all I needed for L-Mount Primes.  Until Leica came out with a camera body with low light excellence and autofocus to match (possibly the SL3) moving into the low light and long focal length (more sport oriented) lenses probably did not make business sense.   If Canon/Nikon/Sony can sell those big telephoto lenses for US$12,000 or more, think what price the Leica equivalent could command.  

[BernardC]

49 minutes ago, Manicouagan1 said:

If Canon/Nikon/Sony can sell those big telephoto lenses for US$12,000 or more, think what price the Leica equivalent could command.

The problem, as Leica figured-out with the R system, is that the market for this type of lens is tiny, and it's fully served by Canon and Nikon.

It's not just Leica. Pentax, Minolta, Olympus, Topcon, Contax, Rollei, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Tamron, etc., all tried to break into the super-telephoto market with little success. Sony is trying the same thing these days, although their range is limited: 600/4.0, 400/2.8, and 300/2.8.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Jean-Michel]

Well, if you have a R to M or to L adapter, you could commission Leica to make you a 1600 mm f/5.6 R-Apo-Telyt lens.😀