Choosing new film M

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7 minutes ago, Big John said:

- 35mm is my favourite FL.

Then get the M2.

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[IkarusJohn]

38 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

Others describe the MP as being an updated M6, with retro wind and rewind levers... Functionally that seems to be the case.

As the current MP followed the M6 (what was the biggest selling M camera?), that is entirely logical.  So, apart from the body shape, what was upgraded in the MP?  The meter, I guess …

[Mr.Prime]

34 minutes ago, Big John said:

Thanks everyone - really good food for thought.  A couple of comments back in response to some of the points made:

- 35mm is my favourite FL.

- I was leaning towards a smaller, lighter SLR (I only have my F5 and while it is a great camera, it is big and heavy).

- still not clear whether the new M6 has scratching issues?

If you are comfortable and productive with an SLR it will be a fairly big adjustment to an old film M. I would not advise you do it unless you have a strong interest in the M for being what it is. Actually, you don't have to limit yourself to one camera, in addition to my film M's there's also my lightweight film SLR with 35mm, 50mm primes. You may find that a used M4 and a used SLR can be found for less than the price of a new M.

Edited January 10, 2024 by Mr.Prime

[a.noctilux]

Film SLR can be purchased second hand cheap.

We have choices in Nikon F, Olympus OM which is as compact as Leica M (some even find this too compact) with great lenses.

Why not Leica R (SLR), compact/reliable ( I used these ) R-E/R6 for example with very nice Leitz/Leica lenses at very affordable prices.

[Anbaric]

50 minutes ago, Big John said:

- still not clear whether the new M6 has scratching issues?

I'm not sure anyone is, possibly including Leica. The problem did not just affect the M6, but other current cameras, and it has happened in the past from time to time (even decades ago). They claimed that a particular 'batch' of pressure plates was affected this time, but there was no recall - perhaps it's a common but not universal problem within that batch, or maybe a bad batch was mixed in with good components?

[earleygallery]

If I wanted a new Leica M I'd buy an MP (I prefer the solid wind lever and rewind knob compared to the M6, and may as well have the built in meter if you want it).

If I didn't want a new M but wanted an M, I'd buy the best M2 I could find.

If I just wanted a nice film camera I'd buy a Nikon F2, a Canon F1 or a Pentax MX, or maybe a Canon EOS1 (with AF).

 

[Jewl]

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For me the MP is the best choice if looking for a new film M. Started with the M6 which had technical issues (went to Wetzlar 2 times) and exchanged it then by the MP (via the service incident). Should have taken the MP from the beginning as I feel it is better from a value perspective. You barely find an old/used MP for a reasonable price. An M6 in comparison you can find for 2-3k. I'd pick a used one if I really wanted the M6! But as warranty etc. was important to me, I picked a new one. And of course, the built in light meter is very important for me. That's why used Ms without a meter or an M-A are not an option (that might also help to make a decision).

[cesc]

M2, and you will have more cash to spent on film

[Martin B]

19 hours ago, Mr.Prime said:

If you are a 50mm lens guy, the M3 is the pick, as it will give you the best viewfinder experience possible.

+1. I second this from my experience. I am using the M3, M4-2, M6, and M7. Of all of them, the M3 rangefinder is the best for 50 and 90 mm lenses. It is the only Leica M camera which comes with 0.91x viewfinder window which allows both eyes to merge the outside and inside camera picture using a 50 mm lens. Another less often discussed benefit: this older type rangefinder still has the condenser part behind the frame line window which Leica removed in later M4 series up to earlier M7 production models. This removal caused unpleasant rangefinder patch flare where the focusing window freezes. The M3 is my only film-based M camera which is totally free of this patch flare. Oh yes, you can replace an existing rangefinder with the new M-P based one which also avoids patch flare, but it will cost you $500. One other thing to mention is that the M3 viewfinder uses a some blueish glass which took me a bit to get used to. 

 

Main con of currently available used M3 cameras: Talking to my repair guy, he received in recent years many M3 cameras for servicing which had the shutter broken. Same occurred a few years ago on my camera. He mentioned that it is not surprising for shutters to break with a 60-70 years old camera. Good news is that this shutter can be fully replaced even today. My M3 works like new since. 

Edited January 11, 2024 by Martin B

[Mr.Prime]

15 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Film SLR can be purchased second hand cheap.

We have choices in Nikon F, Olympus OM which is as compact as Leica M (some even find this too compact) with great lenses.

Why not Leica R (SLR), compact/reliable ( I used these ) R-E/R6 for example with very nice Leitz/Leica lenses at very affordable prices.

The Leica R is not perfect but does get you the red dot. My lightweight SLR is a Minolta and I think it's got a better reputation than the R does (Minolta helped Leica into the SLR business and I think they made some of the lenses). If I were starting from scratch, I'd probably look at the Nikon because there are so many good lenses out there for it. Of course, Pentax is no slouch and with the rumours of a new film Pentax it could be just our good fortune that it this new camera is backward compatible with existing Pentax lenses.

Edited January 11, 2024 by Mr.Prime

[a.noctilux]

21 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

Pentax is no slouch and with the rumours of a new film Pentax it could be just our good fortune

Sorry I forgot Pentax, Contax (those old good Zeiss lenses ...) and many more to choose from.

Compact Pentax LX, MX plus those Limited lenses (31mm, 43mm, 77mm strange fields I use sometimes) can be bought second hand.

[earleygallery]

20 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Why not Leica R (SLR), compact/reliable ( I used these ) R-E/R6 for example with very nice Leitz/Leica lenses at very affordable prices.

I have Leica R cameras/lenses but didn't suggest it as an option - mainly due to the silly prices a lot of R lenses are now selling for. Nothing wrong with the cameras although R3's are suffering from metering/shutter failures (unfortunately as they are my favourite R model).

[ktmrider2]

Main difference between Leica M's and just about any other camera is the viewfinder.  If you like 50mm, the M3 is arguably the best.  If 35 do yourself a great service and look at M2 vs anything else Leica makes.  Every body with a .72 viewfinder brings up two frame lines at least for one pair of focal lengths (M4 brings up 35/135 but 135 is barely noticeable).

My favorite body is the M2 but I prefer the modern film rewind and loading of the current versions which started with the M4 in 1967.  Leica does not introduce features found in other manufacturer's cameras until a few decades after other manufacturers have proven the usefulness of the features.  The modern viewfinders with paired frame lines were introduced with the M4-P.  I find the paired frame lines to be distracting so prefer the M2 or M4.  Be aware that Leica attempted to reduce manufacturing costs with the M4-2 and removed a small condenser lens from it and M4-P and M6 cameras.  The MP, MA, and new M6 have had it replaced so do not have the flare issue of the earlier bodies.

If you can get to a Leica dealer with a used inventory, it might be worth the trip.  I can easily afford $5500 for a new film camera but prefer the classic M4 or M2.  The $3000 you save can pay for a lot of film or travel.  Each model is SLIGHTLY different than other bodies but Leica's all come down to a viewfinder, basic camera controls in a classic body (why M5 failed) and great lenses.  By the way, the M5 is a great camera and deserves a look if you want a meter.

And I am perfectly happy shooting with the classic photojournalist trio of 35, 50, and 90 focal lengths.  You can use the entire viewfinder to approximate 28 but anything wider requires an aux viewfinder.  I have never owned a 75 in 47 years of using film M's.  There is no substitute for handling the camera you plan on buying and saving $3000 argues for a used body but it is your money and your decision.

Welcome to the CULT of Leica ownership!

 

[FotoMonkey]

I recently went through this and did a lot of research. I ended up with the M4 and love it. Looks and feels great. I'm using a Voigtlander 35 on it.

[cj3209]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:21 PM, earleygallery said:

If I wanted a new Leica M I'd buy an MP (I prefer the solid wind lever and rewind knob compared to the M6, and may as well have the built in meter if you want it).

If I didn't want a new M but wanted an M, I'd buy the best M2 I could find.

If I just wanted a nice film camera I'd buy a Nikon F2, a Canon F1 or a Pentax MX, or maybe a Canon EOS1 (with AF).

 

I've owned both bp MP and reissue M6 and I actually prefer the two-piece wind lever (the solid one kept hitting my finger) and the angled rewind knob w/lever (the MP has an add-on lever for the rewind mechanism that you can't get anymore -lol).

I just wish the reissued M6 had the larger shutter dial of the M6 TTL / M7.

 

[Dzongkha]

Am 11.1.2024 um 14:37 schrieb Martin B:

Oh yes, you can replace an existing rangefinder with the new M-P based one which also avoids patch flare, but it will cost you $500. 

Not anymore. It cost now around $1,500 bucks.

[dscdsc]

M-A was my choice after owning two M6's and trying the MP and M4-P. I even considered the M7 for a little while.

 

I never used onboard light meters for film photography. I was a big rollei and hasselblad shooter for about a decade and always relied on my phone or an external meter. These days I don't use a meter for most shooting. Sometimes I'll throw on a hotshoe meter if I'm shooting slide film to be more accurate but most of the time I just wing it.

 

I also didn't want to deal with batteries and if the meter will be serviceable in the future. 

 

The last reason was the look. I am not a fan of black paint so that ruled out the MP. I wanted something to match my M11 and M10-D. I also don't care for the red dot so that ruled out the M6. I currently have a black dot on the M11 but I'm looking to switch to the M11-P or the M11-D (if that ever comes out).

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

After shooting virtually every film M over the last 30 yers, I've settled on several M2's.  Amazing these cameras re still kicking after decades of use.  I've gravitated more to the wider focal lengths, especially 35mm, and the M2 is great for this lens -- just the one frame line!  When Leica introduced the 28mm frame lines, they shrunk the others to make them fit, suggesting they were doing so to account for the borders of slide film and focusing distance, but I appreciate the wider frame lines of the older cameras.  They seem more accurate for for my particular uses.  The M2/M3 loading never bothered me.  I once measured a flawless rewind and load and it took about 35 seconds.  I actually prefer it to the modern landing of the M4+.  Use a meter less camera enough and very quickly you'll learn how to accurately estimate/guess exposures w/o using a hand held meter in most lighting situations.  It simplifies and make things quicker.  It encourages you to look at light.  Really, there really is no bad film M, just different ones.  If I was a 50 guy, I'd probably shoot an M3.  

Edited January 17, 2024 by TheBestSLIsALeicaflex

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[hansvons]

1 hour ago, TheBestSLIsALeicaflex said:

 Use a meter less camera enough and very quickly you'll learn how to accurately estimate/guess exposures w/o using a hand held meter in most lighting situations.  It simplifies and make things quicker.  It encourages you to look at light.

I read this frequently. It sounds like light meters are for beginners and Leica got it wrong when implementing a light meter at some point. You only have to learn how to evaluate the amount of light with your eyes, which will benefit your photography on many levels, and all will be good. 

I was never able to do that. Perhaps it’s me, perhaps it's the logarithmic function of the human vision. Probably both.

I now have an M4P, which is basically an M6 without the meter, shot hundreds of photos with it, and still can’t do it, relying on my phone for metering. 
I also own an M6 and prefer it over the M4P because of the meter. 

I can see that all of that is a matter of perspective, of what you find acceptable and what is not. I’m picky with exposure and critical focus, others are more forgiving with themselves, guess the exposure and do zone-focusing 
 

 

 

[cj3209]

Film is great because it is very forgiving; its not easy to overexpose so even if you 'guess poorly' on the exposure, chances are, you'll still get a decently exposed shot.

With digital, I'm always trying to underexpose so my highlights don't get creamed.  It's a bit annoying.

I do admit its liberating shooting with my M-A but for critical shots, I use a meter.