My color editing recommendations for 2024 - (new: DxO Wide Gamut everywhere)

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Key Findings

There are three factors impacting the quality of color reproduction from your digital Leica RAW (DNG) files:

1. 'Input' camera profile in your raw converter (e.g. 'Adobe Standard' in Lightroom/ACR)
2. Working color space (e.g. sRGB, Adobe RGB, ProPhoto RGB, ...)
3. Image processing 'engine' in the raw converter (LR, C1, DXO, ...) and/or image editor (Photoshop, ...) of your choice

If you are happy today, stop reading. As a reward for investigating the issues and solutions, you will expand your toolkit to meet your needs in different situations. One size does not fit all, and many puzzle pieces can be creatively combined to optimize results (e.g. pre-processing in DXO or C1, refining in Photoshop, catalog in Lightroom).

 

Considerations and examples 

1. Input Profile

Minimum:

• In Lightroom, use an 'embedded' profile or 3rd party camera profiles (e.g., https://www.cobalt-image.com/), or build your own

Better:

• In C1, choose Base Characteristics 'ProStandard' for your camera
• In DXO, select DXO profile for your camera or 'neutral'

 

2. Working Color Space

Minimum:

• In most cases, try to stay close to the output color space (e.g., sRGB). This will avoid translation losses when converting between spaces.

Better:

• If you can, apply a robust wide color space (gamut) until the very end (e.g., down-converting to sRGB)

 NEW IN 2024 

• From 'Better' to 'Best': Install DXO Wide Gamut as ICC profile and use it as working color space in Photoshop, export color space in your raw converter
• This does not require you to use any DXO tools at all - you can stick with what you have
• Detailed explanation and demonstration of benefits, with LR comparison, here (not my video): 

 

3. Image processing engine

Minimum:

• Compare rendering of 'edge' scenarios. Use trial versions. For example, Lightroom de-saturates highlights as they approach clipping. C1 preserves as much color information as possible in the same situation.
• Pick the one you like best ...

Better:

• In the evaluation above, consider advanced capabilities to manipulate brightness and contrast with options to preserve greater fidelity in terms of color saturation.
• DXO gets extra points for the 'protect saturated colors' slider - see the YouTube video above for a demo.

 

 

Edited January 2 by mzbe

[Filip Baraka]

Under number 1. you are rating ProStandard better than Cobalt profiles for camera for C1 workflow, can you go a bit more into details?

Will check DXO wg…

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[LocalHero1953]

Interesting reading, thanks. 

Can you post a link to your images/website showing these practices?

[jaapv]

You are aware that you cannot choose the working colour space in Lightroom  which is Profoto and only apply one of three (Prophoto, Adobe RGB, sRGB) during export?

 

[frame-it]

re: LR, its based on Prophoto RGB with a linear response curve.

for the OP: what about the Display profile? 😇

Edited January 2 by frame-it

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

I`m using ACR/Photoshop. Workflow ADOBE-rgb. Q2, M 10-R or S3 > ACR > Photoshop. MS Surface Studio II, Monitor 4500 x 3000 px (ADOBE-rgb-profile), Epson SC P600 printed on especial German photopaper lustre up to A3+.

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7 hours ago, Filip Baraka said:

Under number 1. you are rating ProStandard better than Cobalt profiles for camera for C1 workflow, can you go a bit more into details?

Will check DXO wg…

Fair point. You could argue that technically Cobalt is in the same class (or perhaps better because they cover D65 and StdA illuminants?): https://www.cobalt-image.com/basic-pack/). My opinion was influenced by the combination of input profile (step 1) and processing engine (step 3), where frequently C1 & ProStandard > LR & Cobalt ...

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6 hours ago, jaapv said:

You are aware that you cannot choose the working colour space in Lightroom  which is Profoto and only apply one of three (Prophoto, Adobe RGB, sRGB) during export?

 

You can select other color spaces in the File Export dialog (Lightroom Classic 13.1):

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3 hours ago, frame-it said:

re: LR, its based on Prophoto RGB with a linear response curve.

for the OP: what about the Display profile? 😇

I would strongly recommend calibrating your screen with a profiling device. This also accounts for the illumination of your surroundings in your unique workplace. The colors will literally 'jump' (strong shift) between default and custom profiles. Calibrite is a good starting point, there are other products that will work as well.

[jaapv]

12 minutes ago, mzbe said:

You can select other color spaces in the File Export dialog (Lightroom Classic 13.1):

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Yes, as I said, on export to save, not during editing. That is the basic principle of Lightroom.

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24 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes, as I said, on export to save, not during editing. That is the basic principle of Lightroom.

Agreed - a strike against Lightroom, e.g., compared to the more powerful concept of working color spaces in Photoshop: In LR, with the default ProPhoto you might 'overshoot', potentially shifting into colors that cannot be rendered in any space. https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/kb/color-faq.html#:~:text=In what color spaces does,excellent choice for editing images.

How would I deal with this in practice? In LR, use linear profiles (e.g. Cobalt Repro). Keep more drastic edits to Photoshop (export from Lightroom, use DxO Wide Gamut), where you can use a working color space to preserve the integrity of relative color values.

This stuff is way too complex for non-technically inclined photographers. Perhaps we can establish a FAQ for this forum to provide a simplified 'cooking recipe' to hide the messiness from those of us who simply are after better colors? I would put some of the blame for this on Adobe, who could just solve everything for most users, given their dominant market share. Sadly, they appear to be preoccupied with AI topics these days, reducing the chance of seeing other improvements being considered expeditiously.

 

Edited January 2 by mzbe

[jaapv]

I find working in ProPhoto 16 bits and dumbing down in the end to Adobe RGB (and sRGB for the web) in ACR/Photoshop) on a 99% Adobe RGB monitor is most effective. There is a lot more to colour management to obtain a fully colour managed workflow from  beginning to end

[marchyman]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

... and only apply one of three (Prophoto, Adobe RGB, sRGB) during export?

 

Please define what you mean by "export".  I "export" my edited images to a jpeg file in LrC.  When I do so there are several different color profiles choices.

 

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Note the "Other..." option.  Lots of choices possible.

[jaapv]

I see they’ve  added quite few since I updated; hardly ever use LR. I don’t know how to clarify “ export” to you, it is the term LR uses for exporting the file. The number of formats is quite irrelevant to the process. 

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18 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I find working in ProPhoto 16 bits and dumbing down in the end to Adobe RGB (and sRGB for the web) in ACR/Photoshop) on a 99% Adobe RGB monitor is most effective. There is a lot more to colour management to obtain a fully colour managed workflow from  beginning to end

For sure. That said, esp. with red flowers and similar subjects, knowing the workarounds can be 'mission critical' even for casual photographers to get a decent picture.

To add to the above: Adobe Camera Raw (the raw import function e.g. used by Photoshop) gives slightly better results vs. LR, if you prefer to stay with just the Adobe tools. ACR can be used with Adobe Bridge (included in the LR/Photoshop combo plan) or when opening DNGs directly from Photoshop. ACR will target your Photoshop working profile (e.g. DxO Wide Gamut) directly as output from the RAW conversion.

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4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I see they’ve  added quite few since I updated; hardly ever use LR. I don’t know how to clarify “ export” to you, it is the term LR uses for exporting the file. The number of formats is quite irrelevant to the process. 

+1 Jaap. For the purpose of our conversation, I understand your point that LR munches up the colors in ProPhoto RGB (because unlike PS, it does not offer a choice of internal 'working color space'). The export options, to marchyman's reply, do then offer to take the result of those shifts that have occurred in ProPhoto and convert back (compress) into another output profile of choice, with the unavoidable conversion loss.

[jaapv]

43 minutes ago, mzbe said:

For sure. That said, esp. with red flowers and similar subjects, knowing the workarounds can be 'mission critical' even for casual photographers to get a decent picture.

To add to the above: Adobe Camera Raw (the raw import function e.g. used by Photoshop) gives slightly better results vs. LR, if you prefer to stay with just the Adobe tools. ACR can be used with Adobe Bridge (included in the LR/Photoshop combo plan) or when opening DNGs directly from Photoshop. ACR will target your Photoshop working profile (e.g. DxO Wide Gamut) directly as output from the RAW conversion.

Purple flowers (Jacaranda!) are worse. For such problems I tend to leave the raw conversion standard and move into L*A*B*  (which is conversion lossless) 

I do use DXO as a primary converter for noisy images and export as DNG into ACR. I think I'll have to try Wide Gamut.

[250swb]

I’m at the point of thinking it’s all a bit pompous advocating one colour space over any other ‘adequate’ colour space given nobody else gives a damn because nobody else saw the original scene. You can promise anything but if photography has come so low that the colour space you use is now a battle ground of oneupmanship count me out. Show me a photograph where colour space makes a difference (unless a ham fisted rendering) and I may change my mind, otherwise it’s an argument between technicians and not photographers.

[Wandering Photographer]

I disagree. As a photographer I want the image to match the colors I see as closely as possible. It is a major part of my motivation for taking the photograph in the first place. I use a Gretag MacBeth I1 to calibrate my EIZO screen and papers that don’t come with good ICC profiles. If nothing else it allows me to get what I see on the screen onto paper only constrained by the printer/paper gamut (that saves me a fortune in paper and ink costs). In certain circumstances I might change the color balance, but rarely. I remember at a critique I shared a photograph of a kayaker running Great Falls of the Potomac, late in the day. Most of the scene was in shadow so had a blue tint except for a rock that caught the direct rays of the sun. A long time experienced photographic instructor kept insisting I change the color balance from daylight to shadow to remove the blue cast. I kept telling her it was late in the day and that is the way I saw it, pointing out the warm colored rock directly illuminated by the sun. If one doesn’t care about color one might as well work in black & white or some monochrome color intensity gamut like cyanotype. Just my opinion. 

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

I’m at the point of thinking it’s all a bit pompous advocating one colour space over any other ‘adequate’ colour space given nobody else gives a damn because nobody else saw the original scene. You can promise anything but if photography has come so low that the colour space you use is now a battle ground of oneupmanship count me out. Show me a photograph where colour space makes a difference (unless a ham fisted rendering) and I may change my mind, otherwise it’s an argument between technicians and not photographers.

 

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[jaapv]

Umm... discussing colourspace is an integral part of postprocessing. Nothing to do with adequate and it has not about the original scene but about the result the photographer is after. The same argument could be made about prints, we can all recognize bad colour - or a bad print - but  nobody will see whether a print could be better if they like the result they are seeing.

The difference a colour space makes is the number of colours rendered. If you want green squashed to near-yellow, for instance, go from Adobe RGB to sRGB... 

 

 

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Prophoto is not here, it is similar to Rec2020 just a bit deeper into Magenta.