First impressions comparing M11P and M10R

[bilbrown]

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I traded my M10-R for the M11P, I kept my M10M "Leitz Wetzlar" and I've owned (and sold) many M bodies. What I am going to tell you in this post is why I think the M11-P is maybe the best not only M but best CAMERA that Leica has made to date (for me anyway).

My first M was the M4-2, which was light and cool but really had nothing. No light meter, nothing. Since I stupidly burnt the shutter, I moved to the M7. Film is a lot to think about for me, nerves or whatever, so the M7 continues to be part of my workflow. I later added an M2, M1 (when I was forcing myself to only zone focus), and finally for film the M-A. To me the M-A is the perfect M film camera because it has the build that will last a lifetime, I am the only owner, and the finish is exactly what I prefer (I am not a BP guy).

As for digital. This is a more complicated story, as I make my full living on the images I make and take. Full disclosure, I am also an S shooter since the S006 and do fashion and editorial portraiture as well as documentary work on the streets and inside at night. The S I ended up with is the S typ 007, and have used the S3 but saw no real advantage with the S3 over resolution and 4K video (which I don't use on an S), it gave me NOTHING in DR. Maybe the next iteration of the S will be mirrorless and we will see if that makes me switch out my 007 that has been recently CLA'd and actually REBUILT from the motherboard up so it will likely last me another 7-10 years without having to service. What I like about the S (this is important for later) was two fold: the rendering of the S lenses off the large sensor and the dynamic range. I used to tell people it was the best camera for image making Leica had thus produced. I meant it.

I had and have a slew of other Leica bodies concurrent with the S. The M9M was light and sleek but just not right somehow, and I didn't like the Tri-X style rendering, how slow the 2009 M9 variant was and how loud. The images were highly contagious and satisfying for other people, but just not for me. I never liked the colors of the M9, I preferred the M8 skin tones and colors but didn't like the IR issue. The M8 actually beat a Phase One I was shooting for a job on images which I found extremely amusing! Maybe this was because, of (shocker) the lens I used! I never liked Kodachrome, so the M9 colors were not for me. I was an AGFA guy or other slide film and I just never got along with the Kodak CCD sensors, and the early tech of the M8/M9 bodies was just atrocious when stupid Canon was making cameras that flew! What I did appreciate is what has carried on to this day in the M series: an M, functionally, is an M is an M.

The M240 and M246 were my workhorses from 2015-2018, I added the M10 first batch 2017 day it came out and slowly integrated it into my workflow. I tried a used M10-P, and the rangefinder snapped in one day of use, so sent back. I tried the M10-D but was not sold, because the FOTOS connectivity was horrible for a camera that didn't have a back-up screen! I think both of those cameras are great, I either had bad luck or there is something that made me just not try again.

Because of certain shots, portraits and other in 2015 I added a SL typ 601, and M and R adapters. The SL got me on the radar at Wetzlar, and I was in S magazine, LFI and others because of it. I think I shot the SL like a M or R in many ways. In fact my R8 stays pretty much idle as long as I have an SL body, and I just switch out the lenses.

But the love affair with the SL stopped with the SL2. The SL2 is a camera I am only now starting to appreciate more. When it came out I held onto my SL typ 601 for as long as I could. I did not like the contrast, I did not like the *look* of the higher resolution rendering (may be important later, because it grew on me) and although it had more DR than my SL, M240 and was close to my M246 monochrom (but in color) the color shift that happened in low light wasn't worth it for me. People LOVE the Q2, same sensor as the SL2, but I think Leica somehow had more control with the 28 Summilux-Q attached. Yes, you can and I do, change all this in post – but a yellow should not render orange and a red should be a red not magenta. IFYKYK what I'm talking about. It's just bizarre!

Then around the pandemic things got interesting. The SL2-S, wow. I was SOLD on the BSI sensor! And I added the Q2M (had a Q, but I rarely used it, but looking back Ive used it enough to where some of my favorite shots came in the form of the Q in black & white). Okay okay, I see where this is going, higher DR, and sensors that resolve and are croppable, or just simply have more information embeded in them – the Q2M made me pick up a SL2-S, simply for the sensors resolvability and my SL typ 601 was showing its age. Were the digital cameras getting closer to the visual media colors you see on streaming, but also printable. Then I sold my M10 (and 50 APO) and got the M10-R, replaced my M246 with the M10-M when the "Leitz Wetzlar" edition came out because I had sold my M246 for a Mamiya 7ii (which I later sold because the leaf shutter was too quiet! But this pushes the idea that at 6x7 the resolution matters!) and the "Leitz Wetzlar" edition added to my own sense of Leica history included Leitz and what that means. I could not see needing anymore than ISO 100,000 EVER, so getting a special edition Monochrom made sense, to me anyway. The M10-R was interesting though, I often put it up against my S007 and swear the rendering and DR are very similar. So it hit me: What if I had and M that could do what the S did for me? 

Now, I could have stopped at the M10-R (and the SL2-S). I really could have kept those cameras until I passed them on to my kids. Because of some body armor bubbling, my S007 was in Wetzlar for MONTHS being rebuilt because of a snafu in shipping I had a loaner S3. Remember, I said the S3 didn't do anything more for me that the S007 did – EXCEPT resolution. 

Now we come to the M11. I was introduced to it early (in beta), before it was announced, by a guy that no longer works for Leica. It seemed complicated. I wasn't sold on the bottom plate being gone, but I loved that it would go for DAYS like my M240/M246. I didn't think the tri-resolution sensor would be useful, but I was intrigued by the fact it was BSI like the SL2-S that had replaced my SL. I decided like many of us to wait for the M11-P. 

Personally and professionally, I used to be a monochrome guy all the way, in fact most of my most recognizable images are in black and white with flash, but something about the M10-R as an everyday carry really made me push color and lenses without artificial light. The M11, I kept telling myself, "who needs 60MP? 40MP is fine for everything I do!" The producers I deal with kept saying, "Let's get you a loaner or rental for when you shoot campaigns." Why? Has the market changed that much? Okay, they said, "Just shoot film then." and I did maybe one or two rolls and then used digital and no one knew the difference. The reality is: NO megapixels do not matter, to us. But to those that think they do, they matter. Some of these people actually PAY YOU. I can tell you, coming on set with a SL/SL2/SL2-S and an S inspired confidence, because they still want a big body so they can see what they are paying for and aren't just depending on you with something they think is the equivalent of a P&S. But often the M10-R files were the ones chosen or the S. But also, and this kind of shocked me, the SL2-S in good light. above ISO 6400 the color shift is very difficult to tone down to something usable for me. I like to be my own DIT/retoucher so this made me really push for the S and M10-R files, but the dynamic range in color just wasn't there for the M10-R outside of using denoising software. I didn't own a M11 yet, but at gallery shows and more I kept seeing color rendering in low light that reminded me of the S3. For lack of a technical description, the colors seemed more accurate or more "live" which is easier to use tone curves to get what you want in post (or just keep it right out of camera). I needed the DR of the SL2-S with better color at high ISO and above 40MP.

The M11-P could not have come at a better time! Yes the Q3, but part of the glory of the M is the fact you can change the lenses (we all know this is the magic, not some digital or film body, the lenses). As good as that 28 Q Summilux is having CHOICE of focal lengths and between vintage and super modern lenses is why to choose and M.

If you look through this post, my needs were 1) resolution, 2) dynamic range, 3) color accuracy, 4) reasonable low light, and the perks of battery life, croppable areas, and light-to-carry as my first film M in my hand. What I got with the M11-P was all of these! Some things I lost however, I had to be okay with them.

Before the current FW 2.0.2, I had to in a way relearn shooting on a digital M with the M11-P. The metering is still not ideal, but highlight weighted is better but makes you have to think differently. On the first few days FOTOS was talking to my camera (Geotagging) and slowing me down, some of my adapters made the shutter act funny, my card wasn't fast enough (same card I used in my M10-R), I had to pop the battery a few times and I couldn't MASH the shutter at 60MP or it would either fill the buffer or I needed to switch to continuous shooting mode. After the FW 2.0.2 came out all of these issues were resolved. I think the differences in the way the shutter reacts (open all the time etc) may be something Leica has to work on. It hit me these are the reasons for the tri-resolution, for the things I would need to mash-that-shutter or shoot fast 18MP was fine. For most other things 36MP was more than fine. 60MP is a luxury and I am glad I have it! I never used the EVF on my M240 or M10 variants, now I think I might need to get one. I haven't used the ES too much, because I like to feel when I shoot. The shutter sound is better on the M10-P/M10-R/M10M, but the M11-P sound isn't a deal breaker.

Needless to say, in a way it was a blessing I had to relearn the M! After a decade plus of shooting digital (and film) M, there were things the M11-P could do that were closer what I expected from my other cameras! Things I would have NEVER shot with an M. Proof is in the final image. It's modern, it fits with current needs of digital rendering, and it can pull from the lens catalog like the other Ms so I still get what I need visually. Is it a perfect camera? Not yet, still waiting on a few FW updates for that but I think being only at ver 2 of the FW we have some things look forward to! It feels like it really builds on the legacy of the Kaufman era of Leica. In working with the files, it reminds me of the S3, with the DR of the S007. The images are GORGEOUS and workable, they are LIVE like the SL2-S and (BONUS) far as I can tell ZERO color shift at high ISO!

Yes, there are things I miss about the M10-R. The M10-R was a pinnacle refinement of the M10 series, no doubt. Stealthy and elegant! However, I am not sure it was a very modern digital camera for its time (not saying the M11 is completely, but it's getting there!). Not having to think about bringing two or more bodies on a stills shoot or having a lot of the things I expect in a camera in the mid-2020s being right there at my fingertips has been a game changer.

Now, about the CAI tech: Do we need it? Yes, I think we do. This future proofs the M line of cameras. AI is NO JOKE. If you are a professional in pictorial, commercial or news you will want to have SOMETHING that says I TOOK THE PHOTO. Not saying it has to be the CAI tech, but with all of the companies other than Leica behind it, it likely wouldn't hurt. I can truthfully say, although I am not afraid of AI. I am absolutely thrilled I have a even small chance of having my images attached to my legacy and something actionable if someone or something tries to pass them off as something more nefarious!

 

To close this long ass post up, IMHO, this is likely the best digital M yet made for a professional shooter or someone that makes a living off the still images they make, which I am. I mean, this of course supposes a professional shooter even wants to get an M. It's not like we NEED one, it's a choice. An expensive one! If you prefer to shoot with an M and you are a pro, this might be the camera for you! I know this isn't going to be everyone's needs, or wants. Hell, I was fine with needing only the basics myself. But in using it since about a week after launch, it's become my go-to digital camera! ON the streets, IN the studio, ON location, candid and pictorial, landscapes and portraits.

I'm sold.

 

**edit: Now lets see what the SL3 and S4 (mirrorless?) will be!

Edited December 27, 2023 by bilbrown
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[Budfox]

Thanks for the long but balanced assessment.

There is a lot of negativity about the M11's on these forums, it seems mostly due to the changed shutter sound and firmware issues (and I would be the same if I had multiple crashes like some have reported). However, it's nice to be reassured by a professional that Leica's decisions with the M11 are part of a necessary process of keeping the camera relevant in this digital age.

Interesting your comment that the M10R was not a very modern camera for its time - that has always been the case with the Leica M digitals (eg the rear screen on the M8/9, well and truly superseded, even on date of release). It seems they have now decided that the technology gap has to narrow if they want to appeal to more than rich dentists (some of my best friends btw).

[bilbrown]

4 hours ago, Budfox said:

Thanks for the long but balanced assessment.

There is a lot of negativity about the M11's on these forums, it seems mostly due to the changed shutter sound and firmware issues (and I would be the same if I had multiple crashes like some have reported). However, it's nice to be reassured by a professional that Leica's decisions with the M11 are part of a necessary process of keeping the camera relevant in this digital age.

Interesting your comment that the M10R was not a very modern camera for its time - that has always been the case with the Leica M digitals (eg the rear screen on the M8/9, well and truly superseded, even on date of release). It seems they have now decided that the technology gap has to narrow if they want to appeal to more than rich dentists (some of my best friends btw).

I contributed to some of the negativity! Like I said, it had to GROW on me and I had to realize what this little M was doing: 

I stand by my assessment, that the M11-P is the BEST digital M for the professional shooter to date (for someone who uses an M like a tool, and not just a toy or a casual shooter). Someone who wants or MUST use a camera for their work will appreciate the M11-P. No you don't need it, you have many options that are maybe even more usable for the kind of work an M would be used for. Even the M10-R will work perfectly fine for most things, so you don't need and M11-P, but you will need or want a back up (battery life alone is pushing it on a commercial or longer reportage/documentary type shoot). The M11-P (if shot correctly) makes these shoots more fluid and enjoyable, and seamless, but you have a learning curve with the new tech (metering, shutter, lenses with adapters, and when to use some of the more advanced functions that no other digital M has). Yes, I say this after I HAVE used the M10, M10-R and M10M on these types of shoots (as well as SL and S variants, professionally). The other M bodies were NEVER my primary body or camera, I can say I feel confident using the M11-P. I feel justified in saying, when shot "correctly" I have no issues having the M11-P as the primary camera on a shoot. It's just that versatile (for stills), AND added bonus, I don't have to make sure my copyright is EMBEDDED in each image as I would on a PAID shoot or even my art!

 

To clarify what I said: if you aren't an dedicated M shooter, or maybe you just shoot an M now and again, and an M is more for your enjoyment while you use any number of other cameras for your work, none of this will matter to you. You can keep the M10-R, especially if you have no reason to use the a) 60MP resolution, b) don't care about the battery life, c) like the bottom plate or brass black M, do not need instant geotagging, don't care if you have internal memory as back-up, don't care if you can charge your camera from a battery brick on the go, and don't care if your images are digitally marked yours and every iteration after is linked to YOUR point of capture... IF you don't care about any of this, it doesn't matter WHAT M you have, except the one you like best! If your M is mostly used as a heirloom or pretty camera to take a few snaps, or you are doing personal work and need a solid camera that is pretty much finished being customized by FW, and you have an BP M10-R, I wouldn't sell it to get a M11 or M11-P yet! There are likely some special editions coming out in the next year or so, I would wait or I would wait for the FW to catch up to your solid M10 variant. I would however ADD an M11/M11-P as it will go well with your M10-R BP and maybe you will (likely you will) shoot it more. Save those shutter actuations, for your fancy-pretty BP camera! It will keep you ahead of the curve, and likely you will (like me) learn to appreciate the M11 advancements very quickly!

Edited December 28, 2023 by bilbrown
clarity

[Steadimann]

I will chime in for a moment... I came from Fuji background and shot GFX100II before M11P. After getting Q2M for my personal stuff, I really wanted to go for rangefinder camera so I got myself M11P and guess what  Today I picked up GFX100II for a shoot after shooting for a month with M11P and while Fuji image is absolutely technically stunning with the resolution, the feeling is simply absurdly bad - It's just another japanese plastic camera with no soul, pleasure or passion.  

And looking at M11 files - they are perfect. 

So while technically all cameras can give you great results, handling and happiness which you get from M11 is on another planet level! Add on to this Leica's naturally looking files, characteristic lenses if chosen correctly, and you're in heaven.

 

[Jon Warwick]

49 minutes ago, Steadimann said:

I will chime in for a moment... I came from Fuji background and shot GFX100II before M11P. After getting Q2M for my personal stuff, I really wanted to go for rangefinder camera so I got myself M11P and guess what  Today I picked up GFX100II for a shoot after shooting for a month with M11P and while Fuji image is absolutely technically stunning with the resolution, the feeling is simply absurdly bad - It's just another japanese plastic camera with no soul, pleasure or passion.  

And looking at M11 files - they are perfect. 

So while technically all cameras can give you great results, handling and happiness which you get from M11 is on another planet level! Add on to this Leica's naturally looking files, characteristic lenses if chosen correctly, and you're in heaven.

 

I can broadly relate to some of your comments (in my case as a GFX100S owner); I do find the Leica M11 files to be more natural looking, and really like the different image renderings that I can achieve by means of switching around my various lenses, from super modern APO through to v5 Summicron etc.

As for handling, the two cameras are quite far apart, and the finesse of the M11 body (and menu simplicity) is noticeable to me …the number of times I seem to inadvertently change ISO on the 100S (I’m starting to think my nose does it!) is remarkable.

If I’m printing to 45” wide, I typically prefer to use the M11 rather than the GFX due to the Leica’s more natural looking (“less digital”) file rendering, to my eyes at least, and with 60mp absolutely fine for that print size; if I go bigger, then sure, the resolution benefit of 100mp becomes useful at that juncture.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[DadDadDaddyo]

I dunno, but I'm starting to think my lack of reaction to the sound of the M11 shutter must be because I don't care how it sounds... or something...

It doesn't throw me, trip me up, or make me cringe with embarrassment. It just doesn't bug me. 

And most important of all, it doesn't make me look fat!

The sounds it makes are the natural sounds resulting from its mechanism, which, among other things, enables exposure measurement directly from the imaging sensor itself. It doesn't rely on a goofy little arm that swings the metering out of the way when you trip the shutter. Seems alright to me...

I could even dream up other mechanical benefits that accrue from the newer design... let's see... um, OK, how about reduced torsion in the vicinity of the shutter/sensor assembly, not to mention fewer moving parts... sure...

My Mazda MX-5 has the GT package that includes the Limited Slip Differential. It's advantages include increased traction during handling and reduced tire wear. Maybe there are Miata cork sniffers who can't abide its sound. Who knows? Does it whine? Does it growl? I just don't know. 

I'm not aware of its sound, but I'm glad to have its benefits. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[bilbrown]

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2 hours ago, Steadimann said:

I will chime in for a moment... I came from Fuji background and shot GFX100II before M11P. After getting Q2M for my personal stuff, I really wanted to go for rangefinder camera so I got myself M11P and guess what  Today I picked up GFX100II for a shoot after shooting for a month with M11P and while Fuji image is absolutely technically stunning with the resolution, the feeling is simply absurdly bad - It's just another japanese plastic camera with no soul, pleasure or passion.  

And looking at M11 files - they are perfect. 

So while technically all cameras can give you great results, handling and happiness which you get from M11 is on another planet level! Add on to this Leica's naturally looking files, characteristic lenses if chosen correctly, and you're in heaven.

 

I think this is what it is all about, honestly. Use and the damn images.

 

I say the M11/M11-P is the "best Leica to date" knowing full well as a system camera, many will not dig a rangefinder and the Q3 is not a system camera but a fixed lens camera. Also, "to date" because I am expecting the SL3 and a S4 mirrorless to come out soon. Which HOPEFULLY will stay within the 9k realm to compete with the GFX and Hassy offerings. I think the ONLY competition will be the Hassy menus, and let's be honest, the X2D is basically a SL knock off with iPhone-like menus.

I think if Herr Kaufman really wants to take Hassy down, the S4 should be a MF SL body.

 

Back to the OP, the M10-R while being the best and final iteration of the M10 innovation, was refined and made a professional tool for the 21st century by the M11. The M11-P adds the future-proof function of CAI in a more refined body, more storage and better glass on the back LCD, for $200 more than the M11 new???! Like it's really a no brainer!

Sans wanting the M11-M or maybe a M11-D, or some other variant like a BP M11-P. This is the camera right now! I may eat my words in 2024. Unfortunately the only AF offering we have currently is the Q3, and as lovely as it is and useful, its not an SL3.

[Stuart Richardson]

On 12/27/2023 at 6:16 PM, bilbrown said:

I traded my M10-R for the M11P, I kept my M10M "Leitz Wetzlar" and I've owned (and sold) many M bodies. What I am going to tell you in this post is why I think the M11-P is maybe the best not only M but best CAMERA that Leica has made to date (for me anyway).

 

I really appreciate your post. It is very helpful to me. Please don't take this the wrong way, but it confirms that the M11 is probably not the direction for me to go in. I have used a lot of similar cameras to you over the years, and right now I have the SL2 and M10M as the main digital cameras. I also used to shoot the M8, M9, M10, S006 and S3. Of those, I loved the M9 and S006, but did not really like the S3 at all. I did not like the look of the detail...was kind of crunchy to me somehow, and I found the color to be too "cooked" from natural for me. Everything looked a bit like a "classic chrome" profile from Fuji...it seemed to me that there was a bit of desaturation in shadows and a bit of clarity built into the profile. The cobalt image profiles solved that one for me. But I struggled with a lot of banding when trying to push the files, along with some issues with the focusing screen not matching the AF sensor and so on. It did beautifully in long exposures at night, however. Obviously it is a camera anyone would be extremely lucky to have, but after six years of adoring the S006, it had none of the magic for me. In the end the technical challenges just spoiled the camera for me. Meanwhile, in early 2020 I had bought a used SL2 to tide me over until I could get an S3, and I found that I was really in love with the way it rendered and it was such a joy to use. After years in the S system with occasionally missed focus due to the large AF area and less accurate focusing, the SL2 and APO Summicrons were just so perfectly accurate and so incredibly sharp that I could not justify keeping the S3. This could all be because we do very different things...I primarily do landscape and artwork reproduction, not as much with people. Most of my portraits are on large format.

In any case, in hearing your journey, and how different our tastes seem to be, it has helped me realize that the M11 is probably not the camera for me. It sounds like the SL3 will not be either, as it is rumored to share the M11 sensor. I am hoping for a new sensor in the S4 (if it happens) that can bring back the magic I have found in the M9, S006 and SL2. Meanwhile, I am really glad that people are liking the M11. I wish them all the best with it, and hope that all of its issues are sorted out soon.  

[bilbrown]

15 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I really appreciate your post. It is very helpful to me. Please don't take this the wrong way, but it confirms that the M11 is probably not the direction for me to go in. I have used a lot of similar cameras to you over the years, and right now I have the SL2 and M10M as the main digital cameras. I also used to shoot the M8, M9, M10, S006 and S3. Of those, I loved the M9 and S006, but did not really like the S3 at all. I did not like the look of the detail...was kind of crunchy to me somehow, and I found the color to be too "cooked" from natural for me. Everything looked a bit like a "classic chrome" profile from Fuji...it seemed to me that there was a bit of desaturation in shadows and a bit of clarity built into the profile. The cobalt image profiles solved that one for me. But I struggled with a lot of banding when trying to push the files, along with some issues with the focusing screen not matching the AF sensor and so on. It did beautifully in long exposures at night, however. Obviously it is a camera anyone would be extremely lucky to have, but after six years of adoring the S006, it had none of the magic for me. In the end the technical challenges just spoiled the camera for me. Meanwhile, in early 2020 I had bought a used SL2 to tide me over until I could get an S3, and I found that I was really in love with the way it rendered and it was such a joy to use. After years in the S system with occasionally missed focus due to the large AF area and less accurate focusing, the SL2 and APO Summicrons were just so perfectly accurate and so incredibly sharp that I could not justify keeping the S3. This could all be because we do very different things...I primarily do landscape and artwork reproduction, not as much with people. Most of my portraits are on large format.

In any case, in hearing your journey, and how different our tastes seem to be, it has helped me realize that the M11 is probably not the camera for me. It sounds like the SL3 will not be either, as it is rumored to share the M11 sensor. I am hoping for a new sensor in the S4 (if it happens) that can bring back the magic I have found in the M9, S006 and SL2. Meanwhile, I am really glad that people are liking the M11. I wish them all the best with it, and hope that all of its issues are sorted out soon.  

I may agree with you here.

If you prefer the SL2 to the SL2-S, and M10M and didn't like the S3 and prefer the CCD cameras like the S006 look (not saying this is everyone's preferences but.. in my experience) you will likely not like the "live" realistic rendering of the M11, Q3, or anything with this Sony sensor. I don't think BSI sensor tech or whatever will replace it will get those looks again. The jump here is more like the original 5D to the 5D MkII, its not entirely revolutionary – but the M11/M11-P/M11-M (Q3 and what is to come) are a significant enough change that it brings in a whole slew of lens-based artists and creators that would not have looked twice at the tech that was up until this point still mimicking film emulsions.

You will have a good 10+ years with the cameras you mentioned, before Leica is not required by EU protocol to keep servicing them (or they run out of parts earlier). So, no need to jump ship right away. 

I will say, you may want to at least get ONE newer body that you play with when it is cost effective for you to do so. Reason being, there is a bit of a learning curve to get the images you want with this sensor tech. Some people have complained about the colors or luminance, and curse this camera waiting for some magical reverting to something less dynamic with the M12. I don't think that will happen. For instance, the shutter technology alone (being always open to get a meter reading directly from the sensor and adding highlight weighted metering) makes the camera slower to start-up and it has difficulties with less than perfect 3rd party lens mounts and adapters. This can be seen as a negative by those that use these lenses (I use them on occasion and the shutter opens and closes constantly but I still get the shot somehow). You can use the rangefinder, flawlessly like the other Ms, but something about the resolution of the back LCD makes you want to use LV to check that critical focus. Not saying Leica is moving us away from the rangefinder, but it's not needed on this camera at all. Removing it or making a hybrid EVF/Rangefinder option makes sense from here (and may effectively help the operation of the camera as an actual innovation. Not sure I would want an M without the same 1950s tech as every other M but I'm not opposed to that option for others.

Things are moving forward, as unfortunate as that is and for many of us that really were fine with the legacy Leica tech, that can make us curse the daylights out of a camera like the M11-P. However, it is not making the camera unusable and not at the heart, a Leica. In fact, IMHO, it makes the camera a better M for the second decade of the 21st century! 

I don't have the luxury to not upgrade, for the reasons I stated before. Maybe you do! To each their own!!

Edited December 29, 2023 by bilbrown
clarity

[charlesphoto99]

19 hours ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

 It doesn't rely on a goofy little arm that swings the metering out of the way when you trip the shutter

 

So you're coming from an M5? That will be a major upgrade. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

Whoops! Forgot how the M10 metering functioned... Even still have an M10M!

But yeah, the M5 was a little weird. Weird, but lovable. Kind of like the R8 and R9...

But for sure, should have reviewed my facts before posting that...

I guess reflecting focused ambient light off the the light-colored shutter blades into the metering is kind of like putting a little gray card in the camera. It's not a bad idea at all. 

All the same, I'm much more interested in how a camera works for me than how it sounds. 

Best wishes!

Edited December 29, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[jakontil]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:50 AM, bilbrown said:

 

 

To clarify what I said: if you aren't an dedicated M shooter, or maybe you just shoot an M now and again, and an M is more for your enjoyment while you use any number of other cameras for your work, none of this will matter to you. You can keep the M10-R, especially if you have no reason to use the a) 60MP resolution, b) don't care about the battery life, c) like the bottom plate or brass black M, do not need instant geotagging, don't care if you have internal memory as back-up, don't care if you can charge your camera from a battery brick on the go, and don't care if your images are digitally marked yours and every iteration after is linked to YOUR point of capture... IF you don't care about any of this, it doesn't matter WHAT M you have, except the one you like best! If your M is mostly used as a heirloom or pretty camera to take a few snaps, or you are doing personal work and need a solid camera that is pretty much finished being customized by FW, and you have an BP M10-R, I wouldn't sell it to get a M11 or M11-P yet! There are likely some special editions coming out in the next year or so, I would wait or I would wait for the FW to catch up to your solid M10 variant. I would however ADD an M11/M11-P as it will go well with your M10-R BP and maybe you will (likely you will) shoot it more. Save those shutter actuations, for your fancy-pretty BP camera! It will keep you ahead of the curve, and likely you will (like me) learn to appreciate the M11 advancements very quickly!

Interesting findings, love how detailed you elaborated your view and experience, it struck me when u mentioned M10R BP

yeah i did have M11 just letting go yesterday after another honeymoon trip with it, i agreed almost if not all the things you shared, including reliability how it was my main camera since launched early 2022, it was a great addition to my M10R BP etc etc

i wont type what you already typed! 
 

something bigger n heavier  lured me away from m11 though.. may be along the way the P if not other special edition will haunt back

[SJH]

I had an M11 from launch (silver), no freezes and pure joy with the all the added features like significantly better battery life, USB-C charging, ISO/highlights performance v Mb, geotagging, better EVF for the Noctilux/sub 21mm world etc. With the crop feature/cropping ability I found myself needing fewer lenses for travel e.g. a 35 M APO doubles up as a 50 & 75mm. I sold my M10R BP after a couple of months as I'd stopped using it really and ultimately I thought the BP was a bit gaudy and a digital M is a digital M. I've also added an M11P on launch day (black for lighter weight) and I love this camera, again no freezes and I don't miss the M10R BP one bit.

Whatever brings you joy but as a camera the M11P is way ahead of the M10 (any model) and brings the sensor/interface inline with the Q3 and soon to be launched SL3 (early March).

[jaapv]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:13 PM, Budfox said:

Thanks for the long but balanced assessment.

There is a lot of negativity about the M11's on these forums, it seems mostly due to the changed shutter sound and firmware issues (and I would be the same if I had multiple crashes like some have reported). However, it's nice to be reassured by a professional that Leica's decisions with the M11 are part of a necessary process of keeping the camera relevant in this digital age.

Interesting your comment that the M10R was not a very modern camera for its time - that has always been the case with the Leica M digitals (eg the rear screen on the M8/9, well and truly superseded, even on date of release). It seems they have now decided that the technology gap has to narrow if they want to appeal to more than rich dentists (some of my best friends btw).

Rich dentists is an extremely small market…🥲

[weatherproof]

On 12/28/2023 at 7:25 PM, DadDadDaddyo said:

The sounds it makes are the natural sounds resulting from its mechanism, which, among other things, enables exposure measurement directly from the imaging sensor itself. It doesn't rely on a goofy little arm that swings the metering out of the way when you trip the shutter. Seems alright to me...

Wait, besides the M5 and Leica/Minolta CL, which other M-bodies have the swing arm metering?

[DadDadDaddyo]

Um, I don't know of any other than those you mentioned. 

I owned up to that gaffe a few posts up from here, in a post that begins with the word "Whoops".

This why I *try* to file a personal "Post-After-Coffee" Guideline, especially on a platform that shuts off edits as this one does. Between that and our members' eyes for quality control, posting here is more like jumping out of an airplane than like opening a door and walking into a meeting room.

And I regret my use of the word "goofy". It was a clever design, in a camera that didn't deserve the cold reception it got. How else would you accomplish through-the-lens metering in a rangefinder body? Somehow, the sensor has to get out of the way when its job is done. 

And, I salute Leica for the subsequent implementation in which light is reflected off the shutter blades, such as in our digital M bodies. As I said in the post above, it's kind of like having a little gray card with you all the time. 

My coffee's getting cold....

 

[charlesphoto99]

21 hours ago, jaapv said:

Rich dentists is an extremely small market…🥲

Not as small as rich photographers...

[Stuart Richardson]

Yes, but if there were not those there would be no Leica...it is literally the entire business model. It's not to say that you have to be rich to own or use a Leica, only that they would not be able to sell enough of them new to have a company without rich photographers. Unless of course they completely changed their products...but that is another story.

Edited January 7, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

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[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

But an immortal, omnipresent, permanent and perpetual one.

Now that made my day! Being immortal!

[Bernard M]

22 hours ago, jaapv said:

Rich dentists is an extremely small market…🥲

My daughter is a dentist, and she is not rich… Seems she is on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Perhaps she should go to the USA, where, apparently, all dentists are so rich that it became proverbial 😉.