Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[hdmesa]

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2 hours ago, Mahesh said:

3) How hard it is to put good jpegs like Fuji or Hasselblad?

How are those Hasselblad b&w JPEGs these days?

/sarcasm because they don’t offer b&w JPEGs or b&w live view.

Fujifilm has some nice sims, but after a few years they get tiresome and are easily recognizable shortcuts. Their b&w JPEGs are really good, though.

Leica’s b&w JPEGs SOOC are the best out there. Color JPEGs need some tweaking in the menu settings. I usually reduce contrast, increase saturation, and max out the sharpness if I want JPEGs.

But for those of us shooting for DNGs, it’s best to set the JPEGs super flat so that the histogram and live view exposure preview is as close to the DNG as possible. This yields JPEGs that look more like video log, but it’s irrelevant as I discard them.

[CDodkin]

On 11/13/2024 at 12:12 AM, andybarton said:

Could it be the lens?

The magenta WB issue is not related to lens used - it's a firmware/software/sensor issue

[CDodkin]

On 11/12/2024 at 6:13 PM, jaapv said:

You can easily resolve this without the hassle of sending the thing to Leica - and very much quicker too. 

1. Buy an X-rite Colorchecker Passport - that won't break the bank
2. Photograph the colour cart in neutral light and on AWB. Noonday sun in autumn is just fine
3. Fire up your computer, open the Xrite software and drag the DNG into the first window
4. Follow the click-path and you are done - The profile file will be in the right LR, PS folder - name it My M11 or whatever takes your fancy.
5. Make "My M11" your M11 default import profile The software will recognize the camera and use the .correct profile each time.

The whole process only takes a few minutes or less. Far less than packing the camera for shipment. You can make profiles for any light, any camera.  If you get more proficient you can tweak the profiles to your taste too. Adobe has software for that purpose. 

I routinely do this for any new camera. The M240 and Pana S5 were worst - the CL and SL series the best  There my profiles were really close to the Adobe and embedded ones.

Color Passport / profiling is great for challenging lighting conditions, as it corrects all colors in the image and not just the neutrals. It's also great for calibrating colors across multiple camera models/makes to provide consistent color accuracy )for example when shooting commercial fashion, where the color is important).

The challenge is using a profile vs doing in-camera WB with Expodisc is that the profile is good for the exact lighting it was generated with, but does not adjust for variations from that position. Thus you end up needing multiple profiles, and you need to guess/estimate which profile to use during RAW file conversion. So you're back to guessing your WB correction.

You can generate Dual Illuminant DNG profiles using the ColorChecker Passport, to compensate for a wider range of lighting conditions - and this can be effective as you're using their software to estimate how your camera will represent the full spectrum of colors under varying lighting conditions. The challenge again is that you have to develop multiple profiles for a range of possible dual-illuminant conditions, and the correct profile is not embedded in the image file for later use. You have to manually pick the right profile again.

Doing custom WB in-camera adjusts for the WB offset at the specific time and location, and is embedded with the image file as it it shot, allowing for accurate WB in post for as long as you keep that DNG file - it will always default to the custom WB you used, and be 100% accurate.

As the Leica issue (and Fuji GFX issue) is a Magenta WB shift - using in-camera custom WB resolves the issue, and provides the embedded data for the correct conversion of the image file for it's lifetime - this is why I consider it the best option of the two.

I use color passport profiling in controlled lighting setups such as with my studio strobes, because once I have a profile for my studio strobes, I know I only have to use that one profile for all studio shoots - so it makes perfect sense. And I'm shooting color critical fashion targets, so it makes sense.

[jaapv]

A few things. It is an option to do a dual illumination profile, you can do a number of profiles to choose from or you can shoot a profiling shot if you are working under fairly constant light conditions. In the end, the desired color rendering is subjective and an artistic choice, only things like product photography need to be as close as possible to reality. 
And then there will be the question whether your end result will be on a screen or on paper which raises further variations. 
So I think that color profiling in raw conversion is more than enough to get satisfactory results out of the camera. 

[CDodkin]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

A few things. It is an option to do a dual illumination profile, you can do a number of profiles to choose from or you can shoot a profiling shot if you are working under fairly constant light conditions. In the end, the desired color rendering is subjective and an artistic choice, only things like product photography need to be as close as possible to reality. 
And then there will be the question whether your end result will be on a screen or on paper which raises further variations. 
So I think that color profiling in raw conversion is more than enough to get satisfactory results out of the camera. 

It's definitely a valid route - but doesn't embed the WB data in the DNG file for use down the line - that's why I prefer using in-camera custom WB for daylight photography.

If the issue was more complex than a WB shift - I think that would tip the balance to using custom dual illumination profiles.

I did my doctorate in color digital image processing, specifically color space development for accurate color representation - so I appreciate both the academic and practical sides of color science for general digital photography. It's great that we have so many easy to use options with modern systems and software. I used to have to code my own! 

[Mahesh]

On 11/14/2024 at 3:16 PM, hdmesa said:

How are those Hasselblad b&w JPEGs these days?

/sarcasm because they don’t offer b&w JPEGs or b&w live view.

Fujifilm has some nice sims, but after a few years they get tiresome and are easily recognizable shortcuts. Their b&w JPEGs are really good, though.

Leica’s b&w JPEGs SOOC are the best out there. Color JPEGs need some tweaking in the menu settings. I usually reduce contrast, increase saturation, and max out the sharpness if I want JPEGs.

But for those of us shooting for DNGs, it’s best to set the JPEGs super flat so that the histogram and live view exposure preview is as close to the DNG as possible. This yields JPEGs that look more like video log, but it’s irrelevant as I discard them.

Didn't know that histogram is dependent on jpegs, so that makes sense why flat jpegs might be preferred by some. 

I don't do b&w and use astia with Fuji which is fairly neutral without any obvious looks of classic chrome or others. Astia looks great for portraits. Guess I'm spoiled by that and expecting similar ease of using jpegs with Leicas. 

The issue is my eyes aren't doing that great and don't want to sit in front of computers tweaking them after working for 8 hours in front of that. 

Range finder means no evf , that's what I like about Leicas in addition to small bodies and lenses.

 

[mirekti]

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…being lazy lately and very time limited for going thorough the forum. Has anyone from the community kind enough to share profiles which would correct this?

Edited November 17, 2024 by mirekti

[Guest]

4 hours ago, mirekti said:

…being lazy lately and very time limited for going thorough the forum. Has anyone from the community kind enough to share profiles which would correct this?

It depends on whether you think you need to correct it. I like the colours that my M11-P  generates. I may manually change the occasional photo to create the style that I want for that particular image, but that's just part of normal processing. Colour is subjective.

[Smogg]

16 minutes ago, Corius said:

Colour is subjective.

I completely agree with you, that's why I usually buy blue apples😜

[jhonzatkl]

I have been using the M11-P since 12/2023 and switched from the M10-R. From a practical point of view I like the M11-P very much, but the colour output was a big disappointment for me from the beginning. The AWB proved to be completely unusable and even though I learned to solve the "magenta-tint" problem somehow, it was still quite uncomfortable and spoiled my enjoyment of using an otherwise great camera. This autumn I ran out of patience and sent my camera to the service centre in Wetzlar. The camera was back in two weeks (I'm from the Czech Republic) and the colour rendering had definitely changed. The colour output is still not the same as the M10-R, which I loved, but I am definitely much happier with the output of my M11-P than before. At the same time I started using AWB again and the experience is (so far) very positive. I think that Leica probably had some mistake in the process of calibrating the camera sensor, which led to the launch of cameras that do not have optimal color output, and there is probably no other way than to solve the problem with a service intervention. Each camera probably has to be calibrated separately and so this problem is probably not really solvable at the firmware level. But of course this is just my opinion.

[T I N O]

How much did re-calibrating the sensor (or whatever it was they did exactly) cost, if I may ask, @jhonzatkl ?

[jhonzatkl]

My camera is still under warranty, so the calibration was free of charge. Leica also covered the shipping costs there and back. However, according to the repair document, it was a service intervention (Service M Camera) worth 140,- EUR (excluding VAT).

[CDodkin]

21 hours ago, mirekti said:

…being lazy lately and very time limited for going thorough the forum. Has anyone from the community kind enough to share profiles which would correct this?

It's not a profile correction fix - use custom in-camera WB using an Expodisc to 100% resolve the issue 

[setuporg]

If you use any lens with purple fringing, like Noctilux, this will nicely go with the overall purplish theme!

[T I N O]

Am 17.11.2024 um 20:10 schrieb jhonzatkl:

My camera is still under warranty, so the calibration was free of charge. Leica also covered the shipping costs there and back. However, according to the repair document, it was a service intervention (Service M Camera) worth 140,- EUR (excluding VAT).

..interesting, thanks for the feedback!  Wouldn't have thought they'd "fix" it for free.

 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, T I N O said:

..interesting, thanks for the feedback!  Wouldn't have thought they'd "fix" it for free.

 

They did fix it for free according to the story. And every M11 should still be under the factory warranty as long as the original purchaser selected the free option to extend coverage by one year (2 years + 1 year extension, and the M11 hasn't quite been out for three years yet).

Although most of us would disagree, Leica probably doesn't' consider it to be "broken", so once you're out of the warranty period, it wouldn't be free. 

[R4p70r]

Just to chip in here, because previously I posted in this thread many pages before (https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/384897-leica-m11-purplish-tint/?do=findComment&comment=4946329) that I notice the purple tint in my photos with my M11 camera especially and this is extremely apparent when I shoot in the following scenarios are:  1) blue sky with concrete buildings, 2) blue sky with road surface or 3) blue sky and green foliage / green plants / green grass & 4) portraits Caucasian light skin colour in nature environment (see no. 3). 

I sent my M11 to Wetzlar for rangefinder calibration and asked them to check the firmware/software for the sensor colour interpretation. Leica called the latter one "software check". Everything is done under warranty and I didn't pay aniything.

I received my camera after 3 weeks and tested it in those scenarios listed above. The colours are definitely better!

Hence I can confirm @jhonzatkl 's & another user's (I can't find his posts and his name) statements after they sent their M11 cameras to Wetzlar to do the exact same colour recalibration! 

It's not to diss some other users here trying to convince other users in here it is the owner's fault not to do colour calibration in-camera during the process of taking photos with a colour checker and colour management with hardware & software. 

My RAW converter is Capture One Pro 16.3.8.23 and colour calibrated dedicated monitors for photography by Eizo & benq. 

Edited November 19, 2024 by R4p70r

[CDodkin]

On 11/18/2024 at 6:04 PM, R4p70r said:

It's not to diss some other users here trying to convince other users in here it is the owner's fault not to do colour calibration in-camera during the process of taking photos with a colour checker and colour management with hardware & software. 

My RAW converter is Capture One Pro 16.3.8.23 and colour calibrated dedicated monitors for photography by Eizo & benq. 

No one is saying it's a users fault - just that the fix is available to anyone for a few bucks, and a few seconds of their time, if they care to take control of their WB.

[don daniel]

I appreciate those who report having had a good experience with color recalibration in Wetzlar. However, please excuse me—I’m still a bit skeptical and would like to see some photos, preferably taken in natural daylight. This could be under blue or gray skies, but they should include either skin tones, street scenes, or cityscapes with concrete buildings. The magenta bias of the M11 is not a matter of the RAW converter, as the JPGs straight out of the camera also suffer from it. This issue is not limited to the automatic white balance but also affects the relevant fixed settings.

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Hallo,

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[elmars]

So it is. But I fear we have to repeat it every day.