Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[jaapv]

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The point I am making is that it is a non-issue. One tweak to a LR default setting and it is gone. 

[lct]

4 minutes ago, don daniel said:

I see a very subtle magenta tint here, but it is more a blue tint - no problem for me here because it seems a natural colour of the sky here. 

There is some magenta in the tree branches but i don't see any in the sky itself. Not to say that the M11 is a perfect camera, i may find reds oversaturated from time to time but it is a feature of the camera i suspect and it is not difficult to adjust in PP.

[don daniel]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb lct:

There is some magenta in the tree branches but i don't see any in the sky itself. Not to say that the M11 is a perfect camera, i may find reds oversaturated from time to time but it is a feature of the camera i suspect and it is not difficult to adjust in PP.

I can't judge the lighting situation here. You could just show a street scene in daylight. Then the white balance of the m11 always tends towards magenta.

[don daniel]

In April I took the first shot with the M11 on Pariser Platz in Berlin. The white balance was not automatic, but set to daylight. In Adobe Lightroom, I see the value +25 for tint: Magenta cast beyond the tolerable. My daughter took the second picture with her Fuji X-T4: JPG directly from the camera with automatic white balance: perfect! Of course, the conditions are not exactly the same, DNG versus JPG with two different cameras. But hey, this is the simplest possible lighting situation there is. The white balance of a camera, whether set to automatic or correctly set to daylight with sun, should not fail like this! You can't be satisfied with that and then tell everyone: You'll just have to do it yourself and create your own colour profiles. No, Leica, please at least correct the most embarrassing mistakes and improve this!

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[jaapv]

I would suggest both are wrong. If I put the grey on the back of the traffic sign I get this: Only WB, no further edits. M11 version.

 

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[don daniel]

Yes, you can do that if you want an absolute neutral white balance. But it was a bright morning with warm light. Your click has just made it colder. But can you admit or do you see the magenta tint in the first picture?

[lct]

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1 hour ago, don daniel said:

I can't judge the lighting situation here. You could just show a street scene in daylight. Then the white balance of the m11 always tends towards magenta.

My streets are in the country since i'm retired sorry. I've shot a lot of magenta there but i've never noticed any significant magenta cast so far. Could it be a street issue so to speak? (M11 + Heliar 15/4.5 v2)

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[don daniel]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb lct:

My streets are in the country since i'm retired sorry. I've shot a lot of magenta there but i've never noticed any significant magenta cast so far. Could it be a street issue so to speak? (M11 + Heliar 15/4.5 v2)

For me, this is just an example of magenta cast. But it actually bothers me less here because you live in such a beautiful place, surrounded by the strong colours of nature. However, I see too much magenta in the sky and even on the ground. But perhaps a reddish vignetting due to the wide-angle Voigtländer lens is also at play here?

[lct]

29 minutes ago, don daniel said:

But can you admit or do you see the magenta tint in the first picture?

None in the sky and a bit in the traffic signs but i must oversaturate magenta a lot to view it clearly in Photoshop. Colors are subjective of course but i would not change anything in your nice pic if i were in your shoes 😎

[lct]

23 minutes ago, don daniel said:

I see too much magenta in the sky and even on the ground.

I must oversaturate magenta to view it there with Photoshop. I could oversaturate reds as well and the pic would look even worse.

Edited November 21, 2023 by lct

[jaapv]

 

 

57 minutes ago, don daniel said:

Yes, you can do that if you want an absolute neutral white balance. But it was a bright morning with warm light. Your click has just made it colder. But can you admit or do you see the magenta tint in the first picture?

And it was removed with one click on the eyedropper tool...

[LocalHero1953]

Telling those who disagree with you that they are all seeing colour wrong is a waste of time IMO. Not that you’re not seeing magenta, but there’s too much variety in human eyesight, what each of us looks for in colour, and screen calibration for you to have absolute certainty you’re absolutely right. 
FWIW I think your first picture has a slight magenta cast and your second has a green cast (on my iPhone). It’s easily corrected, as Jaap has shown, using a technique I use on just about every shot I have ever taken since I started shooting raw and AWB - with any camera brand. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

And it was removed with one click on the eyedropper tool...

As times goes by: Think back - in a color negative you never see a color cast before pressing - in a dia-positive you had to hope that there s no color cast - and now a bit of calculating silicone will do everything top? OK Leica can make a new profile but I bet that there will be the same discussion because its to green or to yellow or or or.

So Deep calm and youse the eyedropper - (just like the doctor described in the prescription  )

[Adam Bonn]

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This tool is worth playing with folks.

On the one hand it works like how the sliders say....

But what's actually going on here is that this allows you to tweak the WB of each colour channel (RGB)

Yes I know, I know it looks like add/subtract red or green or blue (and it kinda is...)

But think of it like this....

So you all know this one right?

TEMP: Make it bluer or make it yellower right? (we'll save tint for another day)

So this

works like

Red make more blue or more yellow

Green make more blue or more yellow

Blue make more blue or more yellow

The nuts and bolts of this are an on the fly adjustment of the forward matrix component of the profile which handles the Camera to XYZ(D50)Transformation.

But hey don't take my word for it...

Read for yourself

https://www.kronometric.org/phot/processing/DNG/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.pdf

and RE making profiles... well if you spend money on software...

 

Look at all the options to adjust WB on a colour by colour basis!!

Of course any profile is a starting point, but for those (like me) that like something tailored to their tastes (and my tastes are quite quirky), a robust profile that tweaks colour ranges, and WB settings for particular colours, it was worth spending some time and money here.

[la1402]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

How 'more difficult'? Once you have an alternative profile, or import preset, there's nothing else to do. I don't have a M11, but I've been through this with the M9 and M240.

My longterm experience is with Nikon, where you can simply use Adobes profiles, and you don't need to adjust a lot to make pictures look right (of course, whatever that is depends on taste). I first felt the need some years ago buy a colour Checker with the SL2S and made my own profiles for the M11, too. That as such is not a problem. But still, if Lighting is even only slightly different than what you used for creating your profiles, Purple/Magenta pops up pretty unpredictably (with the M11), and I find it often difficult to fix when it happens with skin tones. With Nikon, this has never even an issue i had think about. The M10 and Q2 were significantly also better. With the M11, i feel I need to carry the Colour Checker with me all the time.

[LocalHero1953]

3 minutes ago, la1402 said:

My longterm experience is with Nikon, where you can simply use Adobes profiles, and you don't need to adjust a lot to make pictures look right (of course, whatever that is depends on taste). I first felt the need some years ago buy a colour Checker with the SL2S and made my own profiles for the M11, too. That as such is not a problem. But still, if Lighting is even only slightly different than what you used for creating your profiles, Purple/Magenta pops up pretty unpredictably (with the M11), and I find it often difficult to fix when it happens with skin tones. With Nikon, this has never even an issue i had think about. The M10 and Q2 were significantly also better. With the M11, i feel I need to carry the Colour Checker with me all the time.

If that helps you, fine. I prefer to save time, shoot raw, and correct it with one click in Lightroom. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[la1402]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If that helps you, fine. I prefer to save time, shoot raw, and correct it with one click in Lightroom. 

I thought you don't have an M11? How do you fix it with one Click?

[Adam Bonn]

The DNG pipeline BASICALLY works like this:

Camera uses an algorithm to create an As Shot Neutral (ASN) tag, the RAW data is not white balanced in that it's not in a specific colour space, but it still needs tristimulus values (unknown colour still needs a white point to be a colour)

The camera maker controls this algorithm and it's a secret sauce basically.

 

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But much like this standard online calc tool for converting known colours, the RAW software has to start off by converting from the unknown RAW colours to known values.

This is what the colour matrices (CMs) do, this is the part that you make yourself with a colorchecker

So...

The RAW convert uses maths to convert the RAW ASN into WB values using the CMs to find a WB value, eg 2800k or 6500k or 4550k, whatever

So now we have white balanced RAW data, but it's not in the adobe working space of XYZ D50 (5000k)

This is where the Forward Matrices (FMs) come in.

They take our 2800K colours (or whatever) and handle the D50 transformation.

And this all happens before you see the image on your screen.

There's other stuff that happens... often the FMs desaturate the RAW data to prevent it going out of gamut, then use LUTs to bring up the saturation or to handle colour and hue twists against colours being presented at different levels of brightness (eg nearly clipped)

I feel there's probably PHD students writing thesises about all of this... it's an evolving solution (all this M9 v M11... well the way adobe handles RAW has changed since the M9 came out, changed a LOT) and there's an insane amount of maths going on.

But the foundation is the white point of the RAW as supplied by the camera maker.

So I can see both sides to it...

Leica Mx AWB is kinda shitty... nothing new there then 😅 perhaps they could make it better (like they did with the M10, M240) equally there are tools in place to edit images and sometimes some folks would benefit from using them in a better way...

or

TL:DR

Yeah Leica could fix this. But so can you.

[LocalHero1953]

28 minutes ago, la1402 said:

I thought you don't have an M11? How do you fix it with one Click?

I don’t. But Jaap fixed it with one click. 

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[jaapv]

For instance - use a grey card if you want to be precise. Use it once for every shoot. Caveat: Grey Card colour balance tends to make the image too cool for the taste of many, but it gives a neutral starting point for correction to taste. Once the first shot of a series is done, you can batch process the rest.