Film M camera ... here I am again

[colonel]

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On 10/18/2023 at 9:25 PM, logan2z said:

In my experience, I think that's nonsense.  I have an M-A, an M2 and an M4 and the M-A is every bit as good as the 'vintage' cameras.   

You say you've owned an M6, M3, M2 and MP.  I'm not sure which year your MP was produced, but did you notice anything lacking with the MP when compared to your other M film cameras?

If you want to have a new camera with a full warranty then go for an M6 (2022), MP or M-A.  The only difference between them is the presence/absence of a meter and cosmetics.  If you'd prefer a vintage camera, then I don't think you can really go wrong with any of them.  Just choose the one with the features you want and the selection of framelines that match your preferred focal lengths.

and the condition you want. I always feel it is a shame to buy the cheapest offered of a model. Better to spend a bit more and get one in good working condition, that can also give you some beauty as well. IMHO anyway

In terms of price, I bought an M2 in excellent condition and it was only a bit cheaper then an average M6, but I like good condition. The main positive thing about the M6 IMHO is the light meter, but the negative for me anyway, is the zinc, which will inevitably bubble and corrode. Never been a fan of the M6. The new M6 re-issue is definitely on my radar though ...

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by colonel

[Matlock]

28 minutes ago, colonel said:

 The main positive thing about the M6 IMHO is the light meter, but the negative for me anyway, is the zinc, which will inevitably bubble and corrode. Never been a fan of the M6. The new M6 re-issue is definitely on my radar though ...

 

That is not quite true, the vast majority of the 175000 odd zinc Ms (late M4-P, M6 & M6TTL) have not bubbled and if not, will not do so now.

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[Anbaric]

24 minutes ago, colonel said:

In terms of price, I bought an M2 in excellent condition and it was only a bit cheaper then an average M6, but I like good condition. The main positive thing about the M6 IMHO is the light meter, but the negative for me anyway, is the zinc, which will inevitably bubble and corrode. Never been a fan of the M6. The new M6 re-issue is definitely on my radar though ...

I don't think we know that zinc corrosion is inevitable. All M6s are more than 20 years old at this point, and most don't have bubbles. Those with serious corrosion are presumably the result of impurities in the metal, or problems with the plating process.

[colonel]

13 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I don't think we know that zinc corrosion is inevitable. All M6s are more than 20 years old at this point, and most don't have bubbles. Those with serious corrosion are presumably the result of impurities in the metal, or problems with the plating process.

not too sure, but ones that have been kept in humid environments are very prone. For there to be no corrosion as I understand it, there needs to be no flaw in the paint. If there is a tiny pin prick missing or scratch, the zinc is an anode and the process starts.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by colonel

[Matlock]

10 minutes ago, colonel said:

not too sure, but ones that have been kept in humid environments are very prone. For there to be no corrosion as I understand it, there needs to be no flaw in the paint. If there is a tiny pin prick missing or scratch, the zinc is an anode and the process starts.

 

I worked in the camera retail business for a number of years and I never once saw a bubbled M. Remember we are not talking about paint, as you claim, but a double plating (nickel then chrome) which is pretty good protection against bubbling. 

[250swb]

7 minutes ago, colonel said:

not too sure, but ones that have been kept in humid environments are very prone. For there to be no corrosion as I understand it, there needs to be no flaw in the paint. If there is a tiny pin prick missing or scratch, the zinc is an anode and the process starts.

 

But oxygen is not an enemy of zinc, exposed zinc forms zinc oxide which is a stable protective layer which slows further corrosion considerably. And while zinc still corrodes over time it does so at a fraction of the rate of steel, of which there are many components in an M6. There are a few M6 cameras with bubbles but our attention is drawn to them when people ask about prices, condition, and causes, not because it is an epidemic and inevitable in a short time frame. Consider, you are launching your motor launch off a slipway into the sea, the trailer it's on is coated with zinc as a protective layer against salt corrosion isn't it?

[colonel]

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4 minutes ago, 250swb said:

But oxygen is not an enemy of zinc, exposed zinc forms zinc oxide which is a stable protective layer which slows further corrosion considerably. And while zinc still corrodes over time it does so at a fraction of the rate of steel, of which there are many components in an M6. There are a few M6 cameras with bubbles but our attention is drawn to them when people ask about prices, condition, and causes, not because it is an epidemic and inevitable in a short time frame. Consider, you are launching your motor launch off a slipway into the sea, the trailer it's on is coated with zinc as a protective layer against salt corrosion isn't it?

"Variables affecting the corrosion rate and life expectancy of various zinc coatings include:

• Temperature.
• Airborne salinity.
• Sulfur dioxide level.
• Relative humidity.
• Rainfall.
• Sheltering condition.
• Coating thickness.

Although zinc has excellent corrosion resistance, it is less noble than many metals and thus has been used as a sacrificial anode for cathodic corrosion protection of structural metals in corrosive environments such as for seawater applications. A galvanic cell is created when the most active metal, such as zinc, preferentially corrodes to protect the cathode metal, such as steel of a ship hull or pier. (For more on cathodic protection, read: The Basics of Cathodic Protection.)"

[cesc]

So, does that mean it's better to buy the new Leica M6 2023, or should I consider the MP, M-A, M2, M3, which are made of brass, if I'm not mistaken?

[colonel]

4 minutes ago, cesc said:

So, does that mean it's better to buy the new Leica M6 2023, or should I consider the MP, M-A, M2, M3, which are made of brass, if I'm not mistaken?

Its up to you and your budget. As quoted most M6s are robust and should be fine, Its purely personal that I prefer to avoid zinc. 

If your budget is unlimited then I would recommend the new M6. If not, any of the other ones you mention are fine. You just need to ask yourself firstly:

1. Do you want a built in meter or not ? (yes would exclude M-A, M2, M3, M4)

2. Do you mind the less convenience of separate loading spool ? (yes would exclude the M2 and M3)

3. Do you need 35mm frameline or happy with only 50mm and longer ? (yes would exclude the M3)

4. Do you want the more comfortable rewind ? (yes would only include the M6)

For me, only 3 was relevant but everyone is different! 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by colonel

[cesc]

20 minutes ago, colonel said:

Its up to you and your budget. As quoted most M6s are robust and should be fine, Its purely personal that I prefer to avoid zinc. 

If your budget is unlimited then I would recommend the new M6. If not, any of the other ones you mention are fine. You just need to ask yourself firstly:

1. Do you want a built in meter or not ? (yes would exclude M-A, M2, M3, M4)

2. Do you mind the less convenience of separate loading spool ? (yes would exclude the M2 and M3)

3. Do you need 35mm frameline or happy with only 50mm and longer ? (yes would exclude the M3)

4. Do you want the more comfortable rewind ? (yes would only include the M6)

For me, only 3 was relevant but everyone is different! 

 

Number 3 is very important to me because I frequently switch between 35mm and 50mm lenses.

 

Apart from that, the rest has never bothered me. In fact, with my M2 or M3, I found the spool mechanism to be robust and secure. You could even feel the tip of the negative leaving the spool while rewinding, allowing you to leave a bit of the negative out. This way, I could avoid the need for extra tools in the dark bag to remove the negative from the can when loading it into the Paterson tanks.

 

When I had the MP, I felt it was less smooth to operate than the M2 and M3, so new sometimes doesn't mean better.

 I believe my budget is going to be justified if I find a camera that will stay with me for as long as possible. Buying new might give the wrong impression that it will last longer

 

Thanks again for your advice and thoughts here

[250swb]

1 hour ago, cesc said:

So, does that mean it's better to buy the new Leica M6 2023, or should I consider the MP, M-A, M2, M3, which are made of brass, if I'm not mistaken?

 

52 minutes ago, cesc said:

This way, I could avoid the need for extra tools in the dark bag to remove the negative from the can when loading it into the Paterson tanks.

This is where it leads to when people put unfounded worries into you head and you start to micro manage your comfort levels. You are buying a camera, do that first, the priority is for it to make the types of photographs you like to make. Don't choose a camera based on a bottle opener (and yes you can still feel the film disengage on cameras with the rewind crank).

[newtoleica]

An M7 is actually the best pairing with a digital M. Same exposure, same direction shutter speed. That an an M10 variant are seamless in switching. 

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, colonel said:

not too sure, but ones that have been kept in humid environments are very prone. For there to be no corrosion as I understand it, there needs to be no flaw in the paint. If there is a tiny pin prick missing or scratch, the zinc is an anode and the process starts.

It isn't paint, but rather multiple layers of metal plating - reportedly copper, nickel, bright chrome and optionally black chrome. It's hard for a scratch to get all the way through to the zinc. On cameras where I've seen bubbling, there hasn't been any particular association with damage - bubbles can appear on what looks like an otherwise pristine area of the top plate. But if there are impurities in the zinc, or the surface hasn't been prepared properly for the next plating layer, bubbles can later appear on their own without an obvious environmental trigger (there have been reports of this happening in dry storage). If the air is damp enough for corrosion to happen where it wouldn't otherwise occur, you may well end up with other problems, including internal corrosion of various components, fungus in the optics, and damage to the electronics. The electronics may eventually become an issue in any case - some components, like capacitors, may not last indefinitely, and spare main meter boards for the M6 Classic and M6-TTL aren't currently available. This may change in the future, as it appears Leica are working on retrofitting the M6 2022 meter (or something similar) to the older bodies. Fitting this meter to the TTL (at least) appears to involve replacing the top plate, and another report has suggested that Leica can now make brass top plates for the older bodies if they are required during servicing.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Anbaric

[colonel]

On 10/24/2023 at 1:37 PM, Anbaric said:

 This may change in the future, as it appears Leica are working on retrofitting the M6 2022 meter (or something similar) to the older bodies. Fitting this meter to the TTL (at least) appears to involve replacing the top plate, and another report has suggested that Leica can now make brass top plates for the older bodies if they are required during servicing.

This would be great if possible. I suspect that fitting a new brass top plus meter would be many thousands and probably better to sell and just buy a new one, but we will see if something comes of this ....

[ktmrider2]

Do you have a favorite model among the Leica's you have used in the past or are you wanting to try something new?  I don't do a lot of shooting these days and have owned every Leica M up to the M7.  If I were to buy a second body, it would be another M2 which is my favorite Leica, probably I would search for an M2R. I am using an M4 and enjoy the modern film loading.

The small differences between Leica models which we debate endlessly here are pretty much a personal preference.  Buy the one you like in good condition and shoot it for another 50 years.

[plaidshirts]

On 10/24/2023 at 1:49 AM, Matlock said:

That is not quite true, the vast majority of the 175000 odd zinc Ms (late M4-P, M6 & M6TTL) have not bubbled and if not, will not do so now.

Yep. I've had 4 of those with zinc tops in my lifetime and only one had bubbles, and the rest did not. Small sample size but still a good majority.

 

On 10/24/2023 at 2:41 AM, cesc said:

So, does that mean it's better to buy the new Leica M6 2023, or should I consider the MP, M-A, M2, M3, which are made of brass, if I'm not mistaken?

Buy the new M6 if a brass top is that important to you and have the budget to do so. Otherwise,, used models, well-kept and recently cla'ed, make better sense. This is what I've done over the years and has worked for me.

I absolutely love the feel of the older M2, M3 and M4. I keep an MP around for the meter (and the black paint), but it would be the first to go if I had to sell my gear. Perhaps because it's new, the film advance doesn't feel as smooth as the classics. The viewfinder though is second to none.

Edited October 29, 2023 by plaidshirts

[LeicaFan1]

I have had my M6 classic since 1985. No bubbles or oxidation in the zinc. Most of it's life has been spent in a dry cabinet, although significant time has been spent in leather case in humid environment.

[Gregm61]

This is precisely why I held on to one extremely clean/nice M4 after DAG serviced it a couple of years ago. 

just ordered some rolls of Tri-X and plan using a “mixed” set of modern and classic lenses, from a 21mm f3.4 Super Angulon, to 35mm f1.4 FLE,  90mm f2 APO, 50mm f2 (IV) and one of three 135’s; either the f3.4 APO, an f4 Tele Elmar from 1970 or an f4 Elmar from 1960, making it one year older than me, LOL…

Shooting in tandem maybe with the M246 to compare/contrast.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Gregm61

[250swb]

3 hours ago, Gregm61 said:

Shooting in tandem maybe with the M246 to compare/contrast.

A great idea, but film is film and digital is clinical, two different aesthetics that are inimical. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by 250swb

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[stray cat]

On 10/30/2023 at 5:26 AM, 250swb said:

A great idea, but film is film and digital is clinical, two different aesthetics that are inimical. 

Steve, you may not know it, but you are a poet.