M11 service problems: a sign of bigger underlying issues

[Patrickfoley@mac.com]

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13 minutes ago, jakontil said:

Apologies but sometimes my M11 automatically switches to multiple shooting like 3fps, when initially set to single shot, u can make sure when your camera is doing that multiple shots, its actually still set at single shot

It is set to single shot, and only one image is recorded. Just sounds like it’s taking multiple images. 

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Jewl said:

I find it very inappropriate that some users in here are such fanboys that such situations are always played down. I don‘t think this is on overreaction because of the frustration, it is just normal if you have a camera that costs 10k and should take 3months+ in service!

had the same with my m11 and summilux. But the issue was even less complex I thought (just a back focus, should be a routine correction), haha how stupid I was thinking Leica will understand anything. Came back as it was. If the camera was not under warranty the would have charged me 400 eur! Needed to go back again there until it got fixed.

just a few weeks back I sent them an email with questions on a vintage lens, they sent a weird answer so that I picked up my phone to talk to them and explain it as obviously they didn‘t get the issue. But then on the phone I was very surprised about the technician who actually did not understand anything. I was very confused that things like „range finder patch“ was not known and they corrected me then that it is called „Mischbild“ in German… was very upset and before sending the lens in (which will take 6 months!!) I will throw it away. 

long story short, Leica really has a severe Service issue. They are always really convinced they know what the issues are because each Technician has 200++ years experience that no one listens anyway to you…

Umm... it IS a German company and although their English is quite good, especially of the ladies on the phone, can we expect a technician to be as fluent?  My experiences are exactly the opposite of yours. Maybe the attitude when making a call is of influence? 

[250swb]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:59 AM, Patrickfoley@mac.com said:

Back in early May my M11, then just over a year old, started failing to recognise Leica lenses attached. It didn't happen all the time, but often enough to be a real nuisance. And, when it did this, the shutter mechanism also seems to develop some kind of fault, sounding like it was firing several times for each shot (although only one image was recorded). I took the camera into Leica Mayfair in London, who told me it would have to be repaired in Germany, which apparently would take "around three months". 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure you've checked but make sure the lens has snapped into place, listen for the click, otherwise the lens won't align and the camera won't read the code, and are you sure you aren't using Live View, in which the camera has to open the shutter before making the exposure, so you get a double sound each time?

[charlesphoto99]

6 hours ago, Patrickfoley@mac.com said:

My feelings exactly.  And Leica reliability issues are something I have experienced in the past. My M10 Monochrom suffered from freezing issues for a long time, before a firmware update finally fixed it . When I sold that to buy a new M11 Monochrom the frame selector lever fell off after three days, luckily in such a quiet spot that I heard it (and the screw that held it) hit the ground. And my M11 suffered the freezing issues that many others have experienced, until a recent firmware update fixed that. Simply not good enough for $10k cameras.

Leica service has been an issue for decades now, or at least since I started shooting them in 1996. The US service being of especially poor quality. I know that doesn't make you feel any better, but just know that you are not alone. 

[LocalHero1953]

There may be uncertainties about what has actually caused a fault, especially in today's era of complex electronic devices. This is nothing Leica can be blamed for more than any other brand.

However, one certainty is that Leica's servicing capacity is totally inadequate for a company of its brand positioning, history and reputation. The one thing you can be sure of is that a repair/service will take an unacceptable minimum of 3 months, more likely 6 months, and that there will be no feedback about the reason for the delay. I have seen no reports here of servicing taking less than this, unless they were privileged to visit Wetzlar, and could divert a technician from repairing someone else's camera or lens. It also seems to be normal for loaners not to be offered (Jaap's report that Wetzlar CS will off a loaner, if available, is meaningless to those in other countries - and loaners appear to be rarely available.

Service capacity is Leica's Achilles Heel and, to someone like me who is a Leica fan, the defence of it here comes across as simply embarrassing. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[Eclectic Man]

Do you have any lens that is always recognised by the M11, or are all lenses treated the same?  If all lenses are treated the same then, as suggested above, make sure the lens sensor on the camera is clean, maybe use a microfibre cloth soaked in sensor cleaning fluid after using a blower brush.

Have you taken the camera and lenses to the Leica Boutique to demonstrate the fault?  They should have demonstration M lenses you can try that may exhibit the fault.

I assume that the alignment of the sensor and marking on the lens bayonet is accurate on both your cameras, but may be worth checking.

I do not know if the coding has any error correcting feature, I once came across a printer where one of the pins was faulty so only alternate letters of the alphabet were printed out, as the differ in ASCII by one bit.  If there is no error correction in the lens coding and you have a faulty connection or part of the camera lens sensor, this could account for the issue, although it really should have been found and corrected in the service.

Best of luck.

[Patrickfoley@mac.com]

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On 10/14/2023 at 12:55 PM, 250swb said:

I'm sure you've checked but make sure the lens has snapped into place, listen for the click, otherwise the lens won't align and the camera won't read the code, and are you sure you aren't using Live View, in which the camera has to open the shutter before making the exposure, so you get a double sound each time?

On your first question, yes I have checked (many times) that the lens has snapped into place. And on your second, the sound made by the shutter is different to the live view double sound. It sounds like the shutter has been fired four or five times at least.

[Patrickfoley@mac.com]

20 hours ago, Eclectic Man said:

Do you have any lens that is always recognised by the M11, or are all lenses treated the same?  If all lenses are treated the same then, as suggested above, make sure the lens sensor on the camera is clean, maybe use a microfibre cloth soaked in sensor cleaning fluid after using a blower brush.

Have you taken the camera and lenses to the Leica Boutique to demonstrate the fault?  They should have demonstration M lenses you can try that may exhibit the fault.

I assume that the alignment of the sensor and marking on the lens bayonet is accurate on both your cameras, but may be worth checking.

I do not know if the coding has any error correcting feature, I once came across a printer where one of the pins was faulty so only alternate letters of the alphabet were printed out, as the differ in ASCII by one bit.  If there is no error correction in the lens coding and you have a faulty connection or part of the camera lens sensor, this could account for the issue, although it really should have been found and corrected in the service.

Best of luck.

I have tried four or five lenses (21 SEM, 35 lux, 50 Lux, 75 APO, 90 Summarit) and the fault is there with all of them. It doesn't happen all the time, but it eventually happens with all.  And I have cleaned the lens sensor (even though I would hope a camera that has just come back from Leica for a service repair with this kind of problem would have the sensor very carefully checked and cleaned by them). I have also cleaned the six bit codes on my lenses.

I have recorded and sent videos of the camera issues to Leica Mayfair. I'm waiting to hear from them. 

[geesbert]

it is so deeply frustrating how bad Leica service is. I had so many bad experiences with them, the few good ones pale. Labor shortage is a major problem in Germany, I understand that, but both turnover times and quality of work is so unbelievable bad at Leica. It happened more than once that I had to send in some gear twice. Only Hasselblad is worse in my experience. 

I had excellent service at Ricoh/Pentax and Fujifilm and rather good one at Canon. If they can do it why not Leica?

 

[charlesphoto99]

If it's a lens and out of warranty, and you're in North America, send it to DAG. It may not necessarily take less time (as he is even way smaller than Leica, lol) but at least it will be done right, and you will know what was done. 

[Jon Warwick]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

If it's a lens and out of warranty, and you're in North America, send it to DAG. It may not necessarily take less time (as he is even way smaller than Leica, lol) but at least it will be done right, and you will know what was done. 

In that regard, does anyone know how long Leica in Germany is currently taking to repair M lenses? I ask, given I have one that needs a CLA.

Also - with regards to repairs via Leica Germany, I assume one is only asked to pay the invoice once the item is repaired, and not upfront? ....especially given the potentially long wait for some items to be repaired (eg, especially applicable for M analogue cameras i read on another thread)?

Edited October 16, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[charlesphoto99]

I would assume months, not weeks. And no, no payment up front, but if it's not under warranty they should contact you with an estimate and ask for confirmation that you would like to proceed with the repair. I'm sure other users can reply with a more definitive answer. 

If I do need something to go to Leica that isn't under warranty, I do it via my local dealer. They tack on a small charge for the handling, but it seems worth it to me (and they may or may not get priority handling being a dealer). 

[JIEFACHE]

Am 14.10.2023 um 00:26 schrieb charlesphoto99:

Overreact? His brand new nearly $10k camera was away for five months and wasn't fixed. But then again many of us long time Leica shooters have become inured to Leica's under reaction when it comes to service, which is sad...

I fully agree!

There seems to exist no longer a sound relationship between cost, service and quality at Leica. My Canon got fixed and returned (after I dropped it on concrete), after one week. Lots of quality blahblah, but reality is a bit different. Fortunately, the M 240 is still reliable, but what came afterwards is another story. Leica should simply replace his camera, if they were still a serious brand, and not what they have become: a luxury boutique for collectors and Hollywood actors. Yes, I'm sour, as an owner of M2, M3, M5, M6, M6TTL, SL, SL2, R4s2, R6, R7, CL, III G, IIIA, & M240. Most of them were of course, sold...but all of them have been used.

My next Leica? I need, as a user and not a collector, reliable cameras. So, I guess, it will be named Fujica GFX 100, sadly, since I really liked the Ms.

Leica: crappy cameras (not all of them, fortunately), and crappy service!

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by JIEFACHE

[Eclectic Man]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:50 PM, Patrickfoley@mac.com said:

I have tried four or five lenses (21 SEM, 35 lux, 50 Lux, 75 APO, 90 Summarit) and the fault is there with all of them. It doesn't happen all the time, but it eventually happens with all.  And I have cleaned the lens sensor (even though I would hope a camera that has just come back from Leica for a service repair with this kind of problem would have the sensor very carefully checked and cleaned by them). I have also cleaned the six bit codes on my lenses.

I have recorded and sent videos of the camera issues to Leica Mayfair. I'm waiting to hear from them. 

That sounds very much like a dodgy electrical contact.  Mostly in place, but occasionally disconnected.  Any electricians on here to confirm / deny?

[jdlaing]

12 minutes ago, Eclectic Man said:

That sounds very much like a dodgy electrical contact.  Mostly in place, but occasionally disconnected.  Any electricians on here to confirm / deny?

Electrical contact? There are no electrical contacts in an M lens.

[Eclectic Man]

Just now, jdlaing said:

Electrical contact? There are no electrical contacts in an M lens.

In the camera, between the lens mount sensor and the processor chip.

[Overgaard]

On 10/15/2023 at 1:50 PM, Patrickfoley@mac.com said:

I have tried four or five lenses (21 SEM, 35 lux, 50 Lux, 75 APO, 90 Summarit) and the fault is there with all of them. It doesn't happen all the time, but it eventually happens with all.  

Pretty sure the sensor on the camera's bayonet is misplaced and need replacement or being put back where it should have been from the start. 

 

[Fred Miranda]

I'm experiencing a similar issue with my Leica M10-R Black Paint camera. The camera's 6-bit sensor can identify most of my Leica lenses, but it fails to recognize a couple of them, even though my M10-M works perfectly with these lenses.

The camera's 6-bit sensor seems to be in good working order and is clean from any debris. I'm suspecting this might be related to a firmware problem (although it has the latest). Right now, Leica has my camera for examination.

[gotium]

On 10/13/2023 at 5:47 PM, codocee said:

Does Leica extend the warranty an additional 5mo you were without the camera?

I would hope so

No they do not. I’ve had them keep my camera for 7 months and they would not extend the warranty. 

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[Overgaard]

1 hour ago, Fred Miranda said:

The camera's 6-bit sensor seems to be in good working order and is clean from any debris. I'm suspecting this might be related to a firmware problem (although it has the latest). Right now, Leica has my camera for examination.

If it is placed slightly off, it doesn't read the lenses and will show them as unknown.