Worth Jumping Into The S?

[snommis]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Came across the S system mainly the 007 for $2000 and I was amazed at how little you can get into a MF system. I do shoot 120 film with a Mamiya 6 and have all 3 lenses. But I was thinking of selling it and using my Zeiss Ikon from the 40s when I want my 6x6 fix. And after selling the Mamiya getting a M10M or even a M11M.  But I thought could it be worth my while to jump into the S system or does what I have already not going to be worth it. I have a M10 and M3 and MP. Plus an SL2S and Q2 that is my wife’s but I’ll use it as well. Will the S give me a different look like it does with film or due to megapixel size am I just throwing money away which could go towards a Monochrom or another SL lens?

[bevdig]

I own an S007 with both the Leica 70mm CS lens and various Zeiss Contax lenses via the adapter. The camera is used professionally with no issues, and IQ is excellent in all respects.  Of course, you would have to buy lenses, and the camera is large and heavy; really, it is not a camera for a casual user. The large sensor size compared to a DSLR does give you the "medium-format" look, very film-like. My advice would be to get one in your hands, use it to take pictures, and make your decision based on that.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[John McMaster]

I have  not found a camera that suits me as well as the S(007), sold most of my M kit, but as always it depends on your output - how big do you print?

john

[ropo54]

If you can buy a S 007 for $2000, I would not hesitate.  S lens prices are so good these days, you can really build an extraordinary set.  

I'm a casual user and while I don't like the weight, carrying the S 70 on the body all  day is manageable.  Just came back from Iceland and ended up following that routine.

The lightest and smallest  lens is the S 70. It is a superb 50mm equivalent and produces gorgeous images, with beautiful colors, depth, tonality and fall off.  (That's how I'd start and then decide which other lenses and which other purposes you may want to add lenses for).

Rob

[Stuart Richardson]

What kind of photography do you do? There is a bit of a medium format look, but it is not as noticeable as the difference in 35mm to 6x6 or 6x7, I don't think. The S is smaller than 645. The sensor is double the size of 35mm, so there are very clear advantages over sensors of a similar generation, but the S007 is eight years old or so now. In terms of image quality it is still superb as it has a fairly low density of megapixels for its sensor size and the lenses are terrific. 2000 dollars is a bargain for what it can give you and 37mp with a large dynamic range will take you far. The camera is big and heavy but it is also probably the most premium SLR ever built...certainly the best DSLR. That said, I would think pretty hard about selling your Mamiya 6 and lenses if they are working and you are happy with them. Good condition high end medium format film cameras are going up and up in price, as even the newest are now around twenty years old. There are no replacements and the pool of film users is still seemingly increasing. This all suggests that the market for them is not softening and it will only be harder and harder to get back in if you decide you want to. The S, on the other hand, is going the opposite direction. There has been no movement for years and each year that passes the current crop of cameras continues to distance themselves from what the S can do. This is not to diminish it, just a reality. The lenses may rebound somewhat if Leica announces a new S camera, but if they do, it is unlikely to be until 2025, at least according to the rumors.

I think the most clear differentiation for the "medium format look" of the S cameras is when shooting at close to medium distances and not all that stopped down. This is when you notice that the lenses required for a given angle of view are longer than they would be for 35mm. The 70mm Summarit is also a touch longer than a 50mm is on 35mm, so it does have a nice "long normal" look for portraits. If you are primarily doing landscape, however, I think it is harder to notice a difference between it and say an SL2 with the APO Summicrons. For my own part, I sold the S2 and S006 to get an S3, and in the end I found that I preferred the SL2 to the S3, so I sold the S camera. I have held onto the lenses in the hope that they might be useful again if Leica puts out an S4, but in the meantime I am fully satisfied with the SL2 for my work, which is primarily landscape. I choose large format for a truly distinctive look.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[snommis]

To answer some questions on type of photography. Wildlife my Z9 with 400 2.8, street or even landscape any of em, Z9, SL2S, M10, film. Portrait any of them although I got the 85 1.2 Nikon and it is a sweet lens. But pretty much any camera for portrait just depending on the look Im after. Serious landscape either my Mamiya 6, Horseman 612, or Ebony 4x5. So carrying a heavyish camera is not that bad due to carrying my 4x5 rig in a Osprey backpack. But the Leica 007 might allow me to get rid of the Mamiya 6 system. But I do love the 6 it is great and the fact there were only 3 lenses I won't ever have GAS with that system. I do have a Canon Pro 4000 printer so I can print BIG!

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

So, you own at least the 10 cameras you’ve mentioned (Nikon Z9, Mamiya 6, Horseman 612, Ebony 4x5, Zeiss Ikon, Leica M10, M3, MP, SL2-S, Q2). Plus you’re considering adding the S007 and the M10M or M11M.  
 

And you’re considering sale of the system (Mamiya) that you say won’t give you GAS? 

Do you really need guidance from us? 🤪

Jeff

[davidmknoble]

I have the S007 and S3 and have enjoyed the color output.  The lenses are great and the files are very flexible.  I agree with Stuart, I would consider keeping your 120 system.  I have just gotten into the Hasselblad CF system and love it (film) and even picked up a digital back for my 500cxi. I think those will be harder to get over time.

[Camaro5]

On 8/17/2023 at 4:22 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

If you are primarily doing landscape, however, I think it is harder to notice a difference between it and say an SL2 with the APO Summicrons. For my own part, I sold the S2 and S006 to get an S3, and in the end I found that I preferred the SL2 to the S3, so I sold the S camera. I have held onto the lenses in the hope that they might be useful again if Leica puts out an S4, but in the meantime I am fully satisfied with the SL2 for my work, which is primarily landscape. I choose large format for a truly distinctive look.

This is exactly what I've been wrestling with.  I do mostly automotive & landscapes and have been considering getting back into medium format.  I've had a Pentax 645z and a Hassy X1d and didn't really like the images from either of them.  I now use a Q2/Q2M and an SL2-S with a 35mm APO Summicron, usually in multi-shot mode for landscapes.  My prints are typically A3+ (13x19) and on Red River Polar Gloss Metallic paper or Hahnemuele Baryta Satin they look terrific.  I am more than satisfied with the color and detail, and I have to wonder if medium format would do any better.  

I like the S 007 but hesitate because of the older technology.  I also like the Fuji's either the GFX 100S or GFX50S II and may rent one just to satisfy my curiosity.  I suppose that's probably the best way to go to really see if either of them would be better than what I have.  

 

[rollsman4]

I have the S007 and only used it a short time. I was on the fence about getting the SL2 and NOT the S007. I shoot mainly Portraits and NEVER wide open ( f4-5.6)

 Any help with SL2 or SL2-s ?   TY   

[ropo54]

I have the S to SL2-S.  It is excellent with the S lenses. Buy the S to SL adapter.  

Toggle focus, eye autofocus, in body stabilization.  It does very well in low light conditions.

Good luck. 

Rob

[Stuart Richardson]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:54 PM, Camaro5 said:

This is exactly what I've been wrestling with.  I do mostly automotive & landscapes and have been considering getting back into medium format.  I've had a Pentax 645z and a Hassy X1d and didn't really like the images from either of them.  I now use a Q2/Q2M and an SL2-S with a 35mm APO Summicron, usually in multi-shot mode for landscapes.  My prints are typically A3+ (13x19) and on Red River Polar Gloss Metallic paper or Hahnemuele Baryta Satin they look terrific.  I am more than satisfied with the color and detail, and I have to wonder if medium format would do any better.  

I like the S 007 but hesitate because of the older technology.  I also like the Fuji's either the GFX 100S or GFX50S II and may rent one just to satisfy my curiosity.  I suppose that's probably the best way to go to really see if either of them would be better than what I have.  

 

I think there is a lot of inherited angst about 35mm vs medium format from the film days. Of course then, you could for the most part load the exact same film in every format, so as you increased in film area, the quality increased more or less in proportion with the size of the negative. Furthermore, the jump in size was much greater, with the largest digital sensors being still a bit smaller than the smallest medium format film size. Additionally, it was easier to design good lenses for large formats (which typically needed to be enlarged much less) than it was for 35mm, and medium format was geared more towards professionals (after the 60s/70s anyway), so the lenses tended to be quite good. These days I think the difference between 35mm and medium format is more subtle, especially if you are not comparing across similar sensor generations. Medium format will typically still come out on top, but perhaps not when comparing a ten year old sensor to the latest and greatest. This was fundamentally my feeling with the SL2...the sensor is so great, and the lenses so incredible, that I did not really feel like I was leaving much on the table when selling the S. I prefer the out of camera color of the S2 and S006 to the SL2, but I preferred the SL2 color to the S3. I also prefer the way it handled processing, noise and high ISOs. Had the S3 had a doubled SL2 sensor then it probably would have been a different story entirely (as it was with the M9 vs S2/S006...the S2 sensor was better in every way). Ultimately, as much as I loved the S006, I decided against getting one again because the SL2 made my job so much easier...it has more resolution, perfectly accurate focus, sharper lenses, fewer aberrations, optical stabilization, a lighter and more compact package and far more flexibility in lens choice... with the right adapter it can basically use every lens I own, right up to large format. There are medium format cameras that have more resolution, but I work as an exhibition printer and the S with 37mp was already fantastic at 100x150cm, and the SL2 at 47mp with sharper lenses is even better...let alone with multishot. Can a GFX100 look a bit better in a 150cm wide print? Yes...a bit. But does anyone notice or care? Highly unlikely...even the most demanding viewers. It is usually only visible to the person who took it.

I guess I am rambling a bit, but I just wanted to emphasize that medium format is not "necessary" for professional work these days. I think you should use the camera you feel most comfortable using, as nearly all of them are so good now that there are few true limits on what you can do with any of them.

[bags27]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think you should use the camera you feel most comfortable using, as nearly all of them are so good now that there are few true limits on what you can do with any of them.

Probably the single best piece of advice I've read. Even shooting film, I tend to reach for the camera I enjoy using most, rather than the one that might give me slightly better results. I'm a rank amateur, so, for me, it's always about the fun.

[Stuart Richardson]

I gave up a long time ago trying to figure it out, lol. One example is that I have two beautiful Leica film rangefinders, and I nearly always seemed to take better pictures on a 500 dollar Konica Hexar AF. Why? Who knows? But on a non-comprehensive list of cameras that just feel right to me: Leica S006, SL2, Mamiya 7II, Ebony SV45Ti, Hexar AF...some cameras are more than the sum of their parts. There is a lot of joy to be had in that, if you allow yourself, whether for professional use or just fun. Of course, it is fun to debate all this too, or I don't think there would be nearly as many people on here!

Edited September 1, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[bags27]

38 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I gave up a long time ago trying to figure it out, lol. One example is that I have two beautiful Leica film rangefinders, and I nearly always seemed to take better pictures on a 500 dollar Konica Hexar AF. Why? Who knows? But on a non-comprehensive list of cameras that just feel right to me: Leica S006, SL2, Mamiya 7II, Ebony SV45Ti, Hexar AF...some cameras are more than the sum of their parts. There is a lot of joy to be had in that, if you allow yourself, whether for professional use or just fun. Of course, it is fun to debate all this too, or I don't think there would be nearly as many people on here!

And I'll pick up my Blad 500 c/m before my Mamiya 7, even though I know how sharp the Mamiya lenses render. Go figure!

[Camaro5]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think you should use the camera you feel most comfortable using, as nearly all of them are so good now that there are few true limits on what you can do with any of them.

Thanks Stuart.  This is some of the best advice I've seen.  It's not that I haven't heard it before but sometimes it needs to be reinforced when the money starts burning a hole in your pocket.  When I look at the nice prints I get I have to ask myself if honestly would they be any better with something else?  I suppose they might be, maybe, but not by much. 

Hugh Brownstone, the Three Elephants guy, once said to just be happy with what you have, enjoy it, and go out and take some pictures.  Sounds like a good idea, and my bank account will be happy, too.  

[davidmknoble]

It seems that if you have a system and it works really well, that is the system to keep using.  I started, unlike some here, with the S007 and got used to the color output.  I purchased the S3 because I had a good number of lenses and was used to the system by then.  For me, the S system is my goto camera for landscape and I'm typically using f/8 to f/13.  For those f/stops lenses tend to be similar.  I like the SL2-S because I like the way that sensor draws better than the SL2, but that camera is mostly to use a few SL lenses and my R lenses (through adapters).  Here is a shot from yesterday, with very little modification out of camera.  So, if you have invested already in the SL system with new cameras and lenses, it probably doesn't make sense to also add the S system.  I already had the S system and still enjoy shooting the S007 along with the S3.  So, it doesn't make sense to sell that at a discount to buy the SL2 and all the new SL primes.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Jeff S]

21 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

 I like the SL2-S because I like the way that sensor draws better than the SL2, 

In what way(s)?

Jeff

[frame-it]

On 9/3/2023 at 5:38 AM, davidmknoble said:

 I like the SL2-S because I like the way that sensor draws better than the SL2

interesting!  Please show some examples using the same lens to shoot the same subject on both cameras

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[davidmknoble]

21 hours ago, Jeff S said:

In what way(s)?

Jeff

@frame-it, I no longer have the SL2, but I will look and see what I have from the brief year I used it.

The SL2 has much more detail because of the higher pixel density and I loved that.  However, when I shoot early morning landscapes, I always got either muddy shadows or highlights with little to no detail.  So, even using grad filters, the more extreme light would not capture well enough for me.  The shot above is with the S3, which has never let me down on highlights or shadows.  The Sl2-S has the same wide capture range (as does the M11).  

As another example, if I meter using the average mode with highlight protection, the shadows just don’t have any contrast in them.  But if I do the same with the SL2-S, I dont have that problem.  To exasperate it, I use a lot of R lenses with the SL system - i.e., the 80 ‘lux, the APO 70-180 f/2.8, the APO 90 ‘cron, APO 180 f/2.8, 50 cron, 35 cron, 28 f/2.8 v2 and others.  The shadow captures on the SL2-s are much better. 

I’ll try to post some.  Honestly, if the SL3 had the M11 sensor in it, I’d be sold!