Help re upgrade to M-10R or M11

[Ouroboros]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I can only repeat what I've said before on here.  I bought my M10-R bp at the point where the M11 had been announced and weighed up carefully which way to go.

  There were and are things about the M11 that do not appeal to me and there were things about the M10-R that did appeal and still do. I see the M10-R as probably the last digital M that adheres as closely to the original design of the Leica M as a digital camera can do, where the M11 steps away from it's roots as an interim camera until something better comes along. 

The litany of problems that have been reported with the M11 only reinforces the fact that, given the same choice, I would buy the M10R again.  If I need the things that the M10-R does not do or do well, I'd use a Nikon.  

 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[dynaerik]

The battery in the M11 lasts so much longer. Definitely a pro to consider. Also the internal 64GB storage is a nice benefit. 

[RMF]

The M11 black weight savings along with the larger capacity battery were enough to convince me to get a Black M11 without hesitation…although I’m keeping an M10r as a backup just in case 😃

[mediumformula]

I sold my M10M and bought an M11M and don't regret it one bit.   The 20% weight reduction alone was enough to justify the switch.  I hike with my camera a lot.  The ability to switch resolution is great and the battery life is amazing and charging is easy.  I'm glad they got rid of the gimmicky bottom plate.  I have an MP and several Barnacks for my bottom plate fixation.  Live view is actually usable. The paint feels better and more grippy.  I honestly don't understand why people hold up the M10-R as the pinnacle of Leica M evolution.  It's a great camera obviously, as is the M10M, but the M11 variants are improvements across the board. 

[jakontil]

My M10R BP probably all i need for a digital M, but i love having battery and usb c like my M11, still use them in rotation with some film bodies, swapping in between seamlessly 

and the only reason why i refrain getting the M11 monochrome is for the lack of brass options

[McGirton]

5 hours ago, mediumformula said:

I sold my M10M and bought an M11M and don't regret it one bit.   The 20% weight reduction alone was enough to justify the switch.  I hike with my camera a lot.  The ability to switch resolution is great and the battery life is amazing and charging is easy.  I'm glad they got rid of the gimmicky bottom plate.  I have an MP and several Barnacks for my bottom plate fixation.  Live view is actually usable. The paint feels better and more grippy.  I honestly don't understand why people hold up the M10-R as the pinnacle of Leica M evolution.  It's a great camera obviously, as is the M10M, but the M11 variants are improvements across the board. 

You are probably one of those who'd like a tilting screen and EVF on an M.

[mediumformula]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 hours ago, McGirton said:

You are probably one of those who'd like a tilting screen and EVF on an M.

Nope.  I shoot with the rangefinder 95% of the time.  I'm a film shooter at heart and don't shoot color digital.  The Monochrom is the only digital camera that inspires me to shoot still photography in a digital format and I approach it closely to how I shoot film.   I hate EVFs.  I need to shoot through an optical viewfinder, mirror, or ground glass.

I'm actually really curious what about liking better battery life, reduced weight, selectable resolution and improved charging, would indicate that I would like an EVF?  What are you getting at?

Edited August 4, 2023 by mediumformula

[pgh]

I prefer the M10-R as well. I don't own it (but have used), I own an M10, and an M10M (which was my upgrade), since I never really shoot color anymore. I'd had my M10 set to shoot bw jpegs and auto import monochrome for 2 years, so it made sense for me. Anyways, the M11 is a fine camera, but literally nothing about it is something I find to be useful in terms of upgrading or paying for. The weight difference is immaterial to me, even walking miles. Like, we're talking grams not kilograms. The battery life is better on the M11, but it has never been a problem for me on the M10 series, so like, I don't care that it's better. I almost never use live view, so I don't care how good that is. When I do use it I find the M10 live view entirely suitable and fine. Built in memory is cool but a redundancy, like...that solves a problem I never had, again. That's the theme with the M11 series for me.

Last, the resolution increase is past the point of what I find useful. YMMV but I and enough people I know have found the 60 mp (or even pixel binned smaller files) to exhibit visible camera shake/motion blur too much comparatively. Some people like to say this just means you have poor technique, and like okay sure, but a leica is not a 4x5, part of the appeal is the fluid, handheld manner in which it can be used. You can get close to 4x5 quality files from the M10M (which is amazing!) with 35mm technique. Maybe a little more careful, but somewhere between the jump bump 40 and 60 inconvenience comes into play in a significant way. When you use it like that - at least in my experience and again in that of peers of mine, you just lose too many shots on the M11. Maybe it's just that the resolution isn't for me - but whatever, a sharp 40mp file, esp digital, is a lot better than a nearly sharp 60 mp file every time. 

This is all to say I find ~40 mp to be the sweet spot for the M series, especially in the monochrome. The prints look amazing, and the camera is incredibly versatile - less so than the M11 when using handheld IME. 

If you are an exceptional human and have rock solid hands and/or don't feel like it's any added limitation to be shooting at something shutter speeds 3-4x your focal length as a hard rule, then maybe it's worth it, but if you gave me 10k today, I'd get an M10-R/M and a new lens instead of an M11. If I couldn't get a lens I'd still get an M10 variant and pocket the cash, maybe for whatever Leica has next, but probably not. 

[Mikep996]

"This is all to say I find ~40 mp to be the sweet spot for the M series..."

I completely agree with all of post #28 but offer one slight comment:

The "sweet spot" always seems to be whatever the previous camera had when the new one is released.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Mikep996

[otto.f]

7 hours ago, pgh said:

The weight difference is immaterial to me, even walking miles.

Plus: isn’t a lightweight camera not a paradox with 60Mp and the new Leica lenses becoming heavier every time? Even the new Summicrons are heavier. I don’t think that combination in itself helps for stability.

[SJH]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:48 AM, Studienkamera said:

I hope you got a good deal. The latest second hand M10-R BP at Leica Mayfair is advertised for 12,000 GBP. 

I did in indeed thanks - for me it really didn’t cost me anything. I really liked the M10R BP but ultimately it was almost too flashy for me and the many benefits of the M11 outweighed it and I’m very pleased overall. I’m not sure they’ll get £12k for it though as digital tends not to go up!! I’ve seen a few others at around £6.5k in mint condition, which is probably a fair price and very nice if you do like and take the M10R route, it will probably hold it’s value better compared to a standard M10R.

I was worried that I’d miss the bottom plate etc but this has turned out to be a non starter really and I have an MP & M6 anyway. I can’t really think of anything (apart from the paint job!!) that I felt was better about the M10R BP really. Let’s face it the M11 can be lighter or the same weight, so much better battery life, USB-C charging, better EVF for precise focusing occasionally for Noctilux lenses, crop ability at 1.3 and 1.8 so lenses can cover a wider range, 3 file sizes, better menu, better rear screen etc. The benefit though of the M10R today is that it’s cheaper by about 2k, so if none of this matters to you then why not?

I recently went to a Leica event and all of the M11 owners there were really delighted, one had the odd freeze early on but that’s stopped now. Equally Leica understand that a small minority have had some issues with this but I think unofficially they see this like any other new camera launch from the other manufactures. It’s a computer and the firmware is very complex so there will be a few bugs. Leica owners tend to be a fussy bunch (which is a good thing!) so probably the internet hypes this up, not to say that people haven’t had an issue. I think though if you did get one of the small minority that do have a freeze issue, with your combination of stuff, then just take a pic of the screen and get it exchanged. 

[davidfung]

Thanks for all your considered thought and opinions. I’ve decided to keep the 262 for the moment. I think the simplicity, weight and familiarity outweighs the improvements for me… I honestly believe that 40-60 MP with my lenses and hand holding skills will not fully exploit the newer sensors. And there is really something about 3 pages of menus and the battery lasting so long… 

[M11 for me]

Am 3.8.2023 um 10:34 schrieb 01af:

in fact, even 24 MP is more than enough

well, even 12 MP is more than enough. 

That discussion has no end. 

[Smudgerer]

11 hours ago, pgh said:

I prefer the M10-R as well. I don't own it (but have used), I own an M10, and an M10M (which was my upgrade), since I never really shoot color anymore. I'd had my M10 set to shoot bw jpegs and auto import monochrome for 2 years, so it made sense for me. Anyways, the M11 is a fine camera, but literally nothing about it is something I find to be useful in terms of upgrading or paying for. The weight difference is immaterial to me, even walking miles. Like, we're talking grams not kilograms. The battery life is better on the M11, but it has never been a problem for me on the M10 series, so like, I don't care that it's better. I almost never use live view, so I don't care how good that is. When I do use it I find the M10 live view entirely suitable and fine. Built in memory is cool but a redundancy, like...that solves a problem I never had, again. That's the theme with the M11 series for me.

Last, the resolution increase is past the point of what I find useful. YMMV but I and enough people I know have found the 60 mp (or even pixel binned smaller files) to exhibit visible camera shake/motion blur too much comparatively. Some people like to say this just means you have poor technique, and like okay sure, but a leica is not a 4x5, part of the appeal is the fluid, handheld manner in which it can be used. You can get close to 4x5 quality files from the M10M (which is amazing!) with 35mm technique. Maybe a little more careful, but somewhere between the jump bump 40 and 60 inconvenience comes into play in a significant way. When you use it like that - at least in my experience and again in that of peers of mine, you just lose too many shots on the M11. Maybe it's just that the resolution isn't for me - but whatever, a sharp 40mp file, esp digital, is a lot better than a nearly sharp 60 mp file every time. 

This is all to say I find ~40 mp to be the sweet spot for the M series, especially in the monochrome. The prints look amazing, and the camera is incredibly versatile - less so than the M11 when using handheld IME. 

If you are an exceptional human and have rock solid hands and/or don't feel like it's any added limitation to be shooting at something shutter speeds 3-4x your focal length as a hard rule, then maybe it's worth it, but if you gave me 10k today, I'd get an M10-R/M and a new lens instead of an M11. If I couldn't get a lens I'd still get an M10 variant and pocket the cash, maybe for whatever Leica has next, but probably not. 

A well reasoned summation that for me hits this particular "upgrading" nail on the head. This line of yours I do really like, very apt;

"like...that solves a problem I never had, again. That's the theme with the M11 series for me."

Edited August 5, 2023 by Smudgerer

[pgh]

11 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

"This is all to say I find ~40 mp to be the sweet spot for the M series..."

I completely agree with all of post #28 but offer one slight comment:

The "sweet spot" always seems to be whatever the previous camera had when the new one is released.

 

I don't agree, at least for my purposes. When I got the M10 I was complaining that it wasn't enough (I did buy it anyways), and the total resolution is the the only issue real issue I've got with the camera to this day - aside from it's relative weakness in rendering highlights. The sensor was inferior to what was available in both facets when it came out - but even I can admit it's not affected a lot of my images. Though when it does, it is frustrating. Never once been left wanting with the M10M, nor the M10-R (which I will probably get around to getting some day).

I've felt ~40 mp (in the form of a 35mm sensor) is the general sweet spot essentially since I was scanning film, before they were commercially available. The one thing I would note is when I speak about "enough" - I am speaking from the perspective of someone who regularly prints at 40" and larger, and sometimes those pictures are not base ISO. So these things do matter for me - but it is down to my own personal threshold. I am not against grain/noise or interpolation. I am against what I don't think looks great. 

I think in the end you just need to know what you really need and want out of a camera regardless of what's on offer, then you can filter out all of the selling points that actually don't matter. That's the best set of tools to assess whether or not an upgrade is worth it. For me, what I've wanted/needed hasn't changed much in 10-15 years. What did change was that when I started working seriously with digital, what I wanted didn't exist, and then, eventually it came close, and finally what I wanted was actually addressed in full. 

[jakontil]

6 hours ago, pgh said:

I don't agree, at least for my purposes. When I got the M10 I was complaining that it wasn't enough (I did buy it anyways), and the total resolution is the the only issue real issue I've got with the camera to this day - aside from it's relative weakness in rendering highlights. The sensor was inferior to what was available in both facets when it came out - but even I can admit it's not affected a lot of my images. Though when it does, it is frustrating. Never once been left wanting with the M10M, nor the M10-R (which I will probably get around to getting some day).

I've felt ~40 mp (in the form of a 35mm sensor) is the general sweet spot essentially since I was scanning film, before they were commercially available. The one thing I would note is when I speak about "enough" - I am speaking from the perspective of someone who regularly prints at 40" and larger, and sometimes those pictures are not base ISO. So these things do matter for me - but it is down to my own personal threshold. I am not against grain/noise or interpolation. I am against what I don't think looks great. 

I think in the end you just need to know what you really need and want out of a camera regardless of what's on offer, then you can filter out all of the selling points that actually don't matter. That's the best set of tools to assess whether or not an upgrade is worth it. For me, what I've wanted/needed hasn't changed much in 10-15 years. What did change was that when I started working seriously with digital, what I wanted didn't exist, and then, eventually it came close, and finally what I wanted was actually addressed in full. 

I tend to agree being 40mpx is the sweet spot for some reason, as i shoot 36mpx on M11 being just fine while 60mpx is overkill to my usage

but depending on the scenario and everyone mileage might differ.. i still found 24mpx sufficient enough for regular shootings regardless 

[newtoleica]

I have an M10-P, the only thing I would change is a faster wake up as I miss a quick shot sometimes if I haven’t been keeping the shutter button ‘tickled’ frustrating… my M7 is much better. Is the M11 faster in wake up? 

[T25UFO]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:48 AM, Studienkamera said:

I hope you got a good deal. The latest second hand M10-R BP at Leica Mayfair is advertised for 12,000 GBP. 

Yes, I saw that and I wondered if that's the value Leica Mayfair put on this camera.  Or it might be a commission sale on behalf of a seller who has stipulated the price.  Either way, it looks pricey.  One M10R BP sold on Fred Miranda for USD 9,000 a few months ago and there's currently on one eBay for USD 9,800.  At current FX rates that's about the list price when new in the UK.

All of which does suggest the BP model will hold value better over time, but I still think GBP 12,000 is very speculative.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Multicoated said:

The last great digital M.

A unicorn. Will never be replicated. M10R Black Paint…

anyone who owns and sells this camera has made the worst mistake. But to each their own. 

I’m lucky to have one. Bought brand new. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I just sold mine 😄 I concur the grail digital M, IF you shoot (also) colour photography. I've decided to forego colour completely and shoot B/W photography exclusively. So, for me buying another M10 Monochrom body made more sense - which by the way is the pinnecle B/W digital M IMO.

Having owned both the M10R BP and M10M, I actually now prefer the more utilitarian and stealth look of the M10M over the more fancy/shiny look of M10R BP. Although I do love the nod to historic BP Leica M bodies.

 

[newtoleica]

4 hours ago, Multicoated said:

The M11 isn’t any faster.

The only thing that helps with this is either take off the sleep mode or pay more attention and concentrate when you’re shooting. 

When I first started it happened to me a few times, but not anymore. I am already used to pressing the shutter button half way as soon as I see something I like. By the time I bring up the camera it’s already awake.

I’m on the M10R. 

This takes concentration and not shooting the M like any other mirrorless camera. The M demands you stay in the moment and concentrate. 

Agree with all that. It’s fine if you’re out concentrating on the street, but if you are taking the camera more casually with family etc and see a good shot it’s easier to miss it than with a film camera. Pre-focussing and half pressing is a lot to do at once whilst lifting the camera. I’ve been shooting my M7 too much and perhaps a little out of practice LOL