Help re upgrade to M-10R or M11

[davidfung]

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Hi all, 

I am finally upgrading my M262 and have an option to get a new M11 or M10R, with the M10R being cheaper of course. I have a range of lenses for the M, 21 to 90mm. I don’t feel the need for 60 MP, 40 is more than enough. My main concern with going against the M11 and getting the M10R is:

1. Reported reliability issues with the M11, even with the current firmware (but this seems to be the big one for me at the moment)

2. Slightly cheaper, about 15%

My main reasons for the M11 are:

1. Weight, M11 Black is much lighter

2. Longer term firmware support (noting the point above)

3. Ability to shoot smaller RAW at 36 and 15 MP (just to save file space)

From your own thoughts, I am leaning on the M10R, but value your thoughts? My main reasons to upgrade form the 262 is to improve the LCD, high ISO, slightly reduced size, ISO dial, and EVF compatibility (for Macro and stills).

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[dugby]

I think anyone considering an M11 should proceed to purchase it, which supports the Leica company and results in newer products being developed.

 

After 40 years of working with high technology, now I've decided the less complicated camera that I have, the happier I feel whilst shooting. 

After some deliberation, earlier this year I think I bought the last "new" M10-R in Australia.

 

So now I'm a single lens APO50 & M10R shooter, and it is so liberating and rewarding.

 

 

 

 

[davidfung]

Tend to agree, the less complicated the better… so there is some reluctance in selling the 262, as I think it is the most uncomplicated of the Leica M. It just works, and only 3 pages of menus. But, the lower performance at high ISO and the poor rear LCD is the main reason to upgrade, but sometimes I think is that even an issue and whether this upgrade just GAS…

[SJH]

Personally I'd go with the M11 (I upgraded from the M10R BP) there are just so many things from USB-C charging to longer battery life, that make the whole experience that much easier. I think the freezing issues have been a bit over done and if you actually look through those posts over the last  2 months say the actually number of people reporting a freeze or reliability issues (rather than discussing them or referring to things that happened 6-12 months ago) is actually quite low relative to probably how many camera's have been sold - it's the problem with the internet!

I think Leica fully accepts that some people have had issues but like any other new camera (Z8 recall?, XT3 freezing etc etc) there are going to be some issues for a minority of owners.

Mines been perfect since I had it - in fact I had more feezing with my M10M and then my M10R in that order.

[nicci78]

Go for black M11 it is as lightweight as M typ 262. 
You’ll feel at home. 
Whereas M10-R will feel like a brick next to 262. 
 

M11 in black and M 262 are as light as analog M which is a real pleasure. M 240 and M10 are the heaviest M ever and it is not good at all. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by nicci78

[satijntje]

I own a M10-R and would never ever exchange it for a M11.

[M11 for me]

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To me much more important than the weight argument is another point: The camera should hang down well equilibered; then you feel comfirtable when hiking/traveling. Here the M10 or M11 are the same. The 100g plus or minus are no dealbraker: You can probably even not say which hangs on your shoulder. Make sure that you have a light lens. I have Summiluxes but normally I do not use those because the camera will tend to hang down in front as the lenses are bigger and heavier. I only take with me when I know that I will meet low light. But to be quite frank: I would not buy Summiluxes for the reason of size and weight.

By the way: I bought the M11 in silver well knowing that the black was lighter. The equilibrium of cam plus light lens was more important to me.

[M11 for me]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb satijntje:

I own a M10-R and would never ever exchange it for a M11.

Can you explain that? 

The M11 has fuctions that are excellent: I do lots of architecture

[Knipsknecht]

Personally I can't see any major improvement in the M11 that makes me want to buy it. In my eyes the M10-R is the much mor rounded product. No complicated, cumbersome shutter mechanism, no battery problems, a decent amount of MP without the need to buy a new computer and a very silent shutter. Of course everyone is free to have a different opinion, but for me the M11 doesn't offer any substantial improvement over the M10-R that makes me want to spend about 8.750,- Euro.

[charlesphoto99]

I agree with @Knipsknecht above for all the same reasons. I bought a black paint M10-R, trading in my M10, knowing well that a new model was imminent soon. Glad I didn't wait.  The M11 to me seems like a transitional camera, that may be bettered and refined by the M12 - if one needs all the bells and whistles - I think I've used live view maybe twice in 50k exposures. 

[davidfung]

Thanks for the replies... I still feel confused! If I assume that the M11 firmware/freeze is (or will be soon) a non-issue, is the price difference of US$1,500 between the M10R used black and a new M11 a big swaying factor for you guys? Would getting a M11 and mainly shooting at 36 MP a waste? I really do not need 60 MP, but appreciate that if those occasions call for it, I have that ability, which is nice. 

What about high ISO performance? On the 262, I find ISO1600 the maximum acceptable, what would a similar usable from your experience on the M10R and M11? 

 

[McGirton]

Anybody else really put off by the lack of bottom plate on the M11? I really hate it, so for me the M10 line as a whole is peak digital M camera design. Given that more megapixels don’t make me want to buy a new camera at all, a decision for any M10 over an M11 is easy. 

[MaticB]

I own M10R-BP and M11 Monochrom, both of them with hand grip. From there on, I must admit, that replacing the battery is more comfortable with M11 Monochrom, and the same is with SD card. With original base plate this difference is probably negligible. I only speak for me and from my own experience in the last few months. The battery life in M11 Monochrom is far better though. With M 10R-BP speare battery is a must!

Because the files from monochroms have basicaly higher resolution, both cameras are non-comparable. 

[otto.f]

2 hours ago, davidfung said:

Thanks for the replies... I still feel confused! If I assume that the M11 firmware/freeze is (or will be soon) a non-issue, is the price difference of US$1,500 between the M10R used black and a new M11 a big swaying factor for you guys? Would getting a M11 and mainly shooting at 36 MP a waste? I really do not need 60 MP, but appreciate that if those occasions call for it, I have that ability, which is nice. 

What about high ISO performance? On the 262, I find ISO1600 the maximum acceptable, what would a similar usable from your experience on the M10R and M11? 

 

the difference is one stop at a high level, around 3200/6400. Is that significant for where you come from? Look  at the image threads of both camera's and see what people show what they like in either camera, and draw your conclusion. And btw, if you have heard the shutter of the M10-R, coming from a 262, you will know.

Edited August 2, 2023 by otto.f

[davidfung]

Cheers, it is unfair to compare cameras of such different generations… but being able to use at around 6400 is a real boon, especially for something like and M for me… with the 262 I was ok using it converting it to B&W up to about 3200/6400, as adding in some grain helps to make the digital noise a little more ‘filmic’, reminds me of Delta 3200 that I used to use… but anyway. The more I think about it, and hear various opinions, it would seem that holding onto the 262 may be more sensible?! With both M11 and M10R has a few compromises and benefits…

Or am I just going crazy from over thinking? 

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, davidfung said:

am I just going crazy from over thinking? 

Could well be indeed. If you say all this you are perhaps not ready yet for a new camera. Forget it one more season. But did you hold these camera’s in your hand already?

Edited August 3, 2023 by otto.f

[davidfung]

I played with the M11 for about 10-15 mins a few times, and feels good in hand. Along with the EVF also. It didn’t feel too bad. The shutter was a bit odd, but wasn’t too bad. I tried the M10/R a few times, the smaller form factor of both compared with the 262 was nice, but I really do appreciate the battery life and simplicity that the 262 offers, and it would seem that both the 10R and m11 are a step in the wrong direction so to speak (its pretty hard to get more simpler than the 262, asides from the MD)

 

[01af]

In terms of image quality, it makes no sense to go for the Leica M11 when the alternative is the M10-R. 60 MP versus 40 MP doesn't make any useful difference in real life ... in fact, even 24 MP is more than enough. Also the difference in exposure range is minuscule.

But then, there are a few points in favour of the M11, besides image quality. The built-in 64 GB memory is surprisingly useful. The longer battery life is convenient. The Visoflex 2 accessory finder is better than the M10's Visoflex (costly, too). But the M11's best thing, in my opinion, is the electronic shutter which is entirely silent.

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Hallo,

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[newtoleica]

I used my M10-p recently with an 18mm lens and the Visioflex 2 - I had forgotten just how slow the M10 is with the Visio. A really long blackout. If I used the evf a lot I would want an M11 for sure. As I don’t have an M11 it stops me using it much. 

[Guest]

On 8/2/2023 at 5:58 PM, SJH said:

Personally I'd go with the M11 (I upgraded from the M10R BP) 

I hope you got a good deal. The latest second hand M10-R BP at Leica Mayfair is advertised for 12,000 GBP. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Studienkamera