jaapv Posted February 8, 2023 Share #21 Posted February 8, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Objectionable is quite subjective. If one is viewing 60 MP at 100% on a 4K screen a lot of irrelevant technical issues appear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Summilux M 35 f 1.4 Sharpness problem with M11 at 60 MB. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hdmesa Posted February 8, 2023 Share #22 Posted February 8, 2023 56 minutes ago, jaapv said: Objectionable is quite subjective. If one is viewing 60 MP at 100% on a 4K screen a lot of irrelevant technical issues appear. Yes, it's completely subjective, that was my point. There is a technical f-stop at which diffraction starts to reduce lens performance, and there is a subjective f-stop I find objectionable based on how I view and use my images. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 8, 2023 Share #23 Posted February 8, 2023 Not sure to see significant differences between Leica bodies and lenses as far as diffraction is concerned. The latter is visible generally at f/16 in my experience and the Summilux 35/1.4 FLE behaves the same way on the M11 apparently. 100% crops hereafter at f/8 (link), f/11 (link) and f/16 (link). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted February 8, 2023 Share #24 Posted February 8, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, lct said: Not sure to see significant differences between Leica bodies and lenses as far as diffraction is concerned. The latter is visible generally at f/16 in my experience and the Summilux 35/1.4 FLE behaves the same way on the M11 apparently. 100% crops hereafter at f/8 (link), f/11 (link) and f/16 (link). That matches what I see generally. f/8 is very good, f/11 is a bit softer and can sometimes be sharpened acceptably in post, but then f/16 is big jump in softness and often unusable. And I say unusable because if I use the f/16 shot in a smaller format where the softness isn't a problem, then I also didn't need the DOF of f/16 and could have gotten away with a larger aperture. Edited February 8, 2023 by hdmesa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidERuck Posted February 8, 2023 Share #25 Posted February 8, 2023 It occurs to me that 60mp encourages what should be discouraged, to wit, pixel-peeping. This is a li'l-ol' rangefinder we're shooting with, after all. Wasn't it HCB who claimed sharpness was (but) a bourgeois concern? At any rate, it's also likely that sharpness, as beauty, lies in the eyes of the beholder. At 100% magnification, our vision may become the limiting factor. The prices of this stuff creates expectations of the tools, to be sure. But isn't our time best spent making pictures? Sorry if I went off-thread. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted February 8, 2023 Share #26 Posted February 8, 2023 7 minutes ago, DavidERuck said: It occurs to me that 60mp encourages what should be discouraged, to wit, pixel-peeping. This is a li'l-ol' rangefinder we're shooting with, after all. Wasn't it HCB who claimed sharpness was (but) a bourgeois concern? At any rate, it's also likely that sharpness, as beauty, lies in the eyes of the beholder. At 100% magnification, our vision may become the limiting factor. The prices of this stuff creates expectations of the tools, to be sure. But isn't our time best spent making pictures? Sorry if I went off-thread. True, but if we stop pursuing sharpness, then we also should be happy shooting f/8 for DOF instead of f/16, which in turn gives us extremely good sharpness 😁 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidERuck Posted February 8, 2023 Share #27 Posted February 8, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes. And I recognize that if we can't ask those questions here, where can we? But I dunno. Some of the best advice I've taken is simply f8 and be there. So I never stop down past f8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 8, 2023 Share #28 Posted February 8, 2023 1 hour ago, DavidERuck said: Wasn't it HCB who claimed sharpness was (but) a bourgeois concern? He said that jokingly because of his shaky hands in old age. But he probably also did comment on the excessive quest for clinical sharpness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 8, 2023 Share #29 Posted February 8, 2023 1 hour ago, DavidERuck said: Yes. And I recognize that if we can't ask those questions here, where can we? But I dunno. Some of the best advice I've taken is simply f8 and be there. So I never stop down past f8. Shouldn't all Leica lenses be used only wide open 😉 (Peter Karbe)? At f/8, most recent good lenses look almost equally good in sharpness and vignetting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotium Posted February 8, 2023 Share #30 Posted February 8, 2023 I get lots of blurry photos at 100% views with the M11 - using a low-res monitor that makes it easier to see. And I find it easier to see lens aberrations like fringing and color shifts than I have seen with older cameras. So then I think I shouldn't look at 100% views from a 60 MP sensor. But then why have a 60 MP sensor in the first place. So I'm using the 36 MP setting now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 8, 2023 Share #31 Posted February 8, 2023 21 minutes ago, gotium said: I get lots of blurry photos at 100% views with the M11 - using a low-res monitor that makes it easier to see. And I find it easier to see lens aberrations like fringing and color shifts than I have seen with older cameras. So then I think I shouldn't look at 100% views from a 60 MP sensor. But then why have a 60 MP sensor in the first place. So I'm using the 36 MP setting now. Because you can always create 36MP out of 60MP but not the other way around (unless AI). The question is what is your final output: pixel peeping or a print or a JPEG for online sharing? A print or JPEG typically reduce the resolution and “faults” anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotium Posted February 8, 2023 Share #32 Posted February 8, 2023 Just now, SrMi said: Because you can always create 36MP out of 60MP but not the other way around (unless AI). The question is what is your final output: pixel peeping or a print or a JPEG for online sharing? A print or JPEG typically reduce the resolution and “faults” anyway. Yes, I think my needs are not of a 60 MP sensor - 18 x 24 prints at most. No tripod, no big prints, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted February 9, 2023 Share #33 Posted February 9, 2023 2 hours ago, SrMi said: Because you can always create 36MP out of 60MP but not the other way around (unless AI). The question is what is your final output: pixel peeping or a print or a JPEG for online sharing? A print or JPEG typically reduce the resolution and “faults” anyway. You can make 100MP out of 18MP without AI. You open the file in Photoshop and resize to 300dpi and any size you want (to save a JPG or TIFF for print). Works in the real world. The relevant question is if the 60MP sensor captures more detail than a 18MP CCD sensor or 24MP or 40MP CMOS sensor. Let's not forget not long ago we made large prints from small negatives. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 9 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/365635-summilux-m-35-f-14-sharpness-problem-with-m11-at-60-mb/?do=findComment&comment=4678045'>More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 9, 2023 Share #34 Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Overgaard said: You can make 100MP out of 18MP without AI. You open the file in Photoshop and resize to 300dpi and any size you want (to save a JPG or TIFF for print). Works in the real world. The relevant question is if the 60MP sensor captures more detail than a 18MP CCD sensor or 24MP or 40MP CMOS sensor. Let's not forget not long ago we made large prints from small negatives. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My point was that upscaling a 36MP image with PS results in an image with less detail/resolution than upscaling a 60MP image. The in-camera downscaling of the 60MP image to 36MP loses information. However, 36MP is often plenty good enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budjames Posted February 9, 2023 Share #35 Posted February 9, 2023 I traded my Summilux M 35mm ASPH FLE in for the new v2. Both lenses are sharp on my M11. I think that my new v2 version is as sharp at f2 and smaller apertures as my APO Summilux M 35mm ASPH. You can send your lens to Leica to get it check out, particularly ifyou have used it for years. Regards, Bud James Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Maclean Posted February 9, 2023 Share #36 Posted February 9, 2023 This may be a silly add-on , but make sure you give your computer time to render. 60 mb may take a minute to show full resolution magnified. Otherwise I would really do a test on a subject at around 1 to 3 meters with the camera on a tripod. Take one shot with the rangefinder and another focusing through the lcd with the assist. See if either both are on focus. This way you can address any possible RF calibration and camera shake. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted February 9, 2023 Share #37 Posted February 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, Al Brown said: This is very much possible. Might not even be a new member but the same ol' one 😏 all over again. Hope we are wrong. Yes, I should have put "new" in quotes 🙃 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Maclean Posted February 9, 2023 Share #38 Posted February 9, 2023 21 hours ago, Overgaard said: You can make 100MP out of 18MP without AI. You open the file in Photoshop and resize to 300dpi and any size you want (to save a JPG or TIFF for print). Works in the real world. The relevant question is if the 60MP sensor captures more detail than a 18MP CCD sensor or 24MP or 40MP CMOS sensor. Let's not forget not long ago we made large prints from small negatives. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I would say, logically, a 60 mp sensor captures more detail than a 24 etc....as does 100 mp capture more detail than a 60. A better question is, do you need that much more detail for your specific application? For most the answer would be no. There are those (like me, often) that just want to have "more". But I am definatelly not sure I get a better picture out of any of those extra Mp...n fact I often get a more detailed bad picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted February 10, 2023 Share #39 Posted February 10, 2023 6 hours ago, S Maclean said: I would say, logically, a 60 mp sensor captures more detail than a 24 etc....as does 100 mp capture more detail than a 60. A better question is, do you need that much more detail for your specific application? For most the answer would be no. There are those (like me, often) that just want to have "more". But I am definatelly not sure I get a better picture out of any of those extra Mp...n fact I often get a more detailed bad picture. Yes, that is the logics of it. Sometimes, I wonder if sometimes you cannot see the image for pixels. Leica R8/DMR 10MP sensor with 35-70/2.8 @ f/2.8, 1/90, 200 ISO Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/365635-summilux-m-35-f-14-sharpness-problem-with-m11-at-60-mb/?do=findComment&comment=4679763'>More sharing options...
jakontil Posted February 10, 2023 Share #40 Posted February 10, 2023 12 hours ago, budjames said: I traded my Summilux M 35mm ASPH FLE in for the new v2. Both lenses are sharp on my M11. I think that my new v2 version is as sharp at f2 and smaller apertures as my APO Summilux M 35mm ASPH. You can send your lens to Leica to get it check out, particularly ifyou have used it for years. Regards, Bud James Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography. Hi bud, do you mean as sharp as apo summicron m 35mm ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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