SL3 Rumors

[Stuart Richardson]

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I am still searching for the correct psychological term. Something is offered ( or in this case, a rumour) and it does not meet wants or needs and it triggers a completely emotional response like a jilted lover, instead of just moving on to a more suitable product. 
Nobody is holding a gun to your head to force you to buy it, or,indeed, even like it. 

I don't think this is really a fair criticism. People invest a lot of time, learning and workflow adaptation and very substantial money into a camera and lens lineup like this, and it is totally reasonable that they are upset if after four years they are not impressed by the update...that means most likely waiting another four-five years for a new model (meaning up to 10 years past state of the art), or potentially abandoning an entire system. Maybe it is not a big deal if you are an amateur and flit from camera to camera all the time, but especially for pros it can be a big deal.

I agree that it is a bit too early to freak out, however, haha.

Edited February 14, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

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[BernardC]

2 hours ago, smooth said:

The sensor is not good for hybrid work.

That's only if they use the Sony's 2019 60MP sensor. That's not given. The M11 has better performance (DR and IQ) than the A7r, even though many believe that they use the "same sensor." Maybe Leica got more out of the sensor, which isn't impossible, or maybe it's not the same as the  A7r4, A7r5, and Sigma fp-l.

CineD will probably publish a full lab test as soon as the embargo lifts, so we'll compare actual numbers.

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, smooth said:

 I got to wait for the SL3-S. The SL3-S will have to address the shortcomings either with a reduced price or better features.

But will Leica even see the need, given the presumed “triple resolution” of the SL3.

Jeff

[tom0511]

the triple resolution of the M11 does not show any major noise improvements at lower resolution.

So it is not like having a 24MP and a 60 MP sensor.

So IMO it would be great if we see a lower resolution SL3-S with faster speed and lower noise - due to bigger pixels.

On the other side-maybe the Sl3 has such good speed and noise performance that we don't have any needs for a SL3-s

 

Edited February 14, 2024 by tom0511

[Smogg]

33 minutes ago, BernardC said:

That's only if they use the Sony's 2019 60MP sensor. That's not given. The M11 has better performance (DR and IQ) than the A7r, even though many believe that they use the "same sensor." Maybe Leica got more out of the sensor, which isn't impossible, or maybe it's not the same as the  A7r4, A7r5, and Sigma fp-l.

CineD will probably publish a full lab test as soon as the embargo lifts, so we'll compare actual numbers.

May I ask, where did you get the idea that the M11 has more DR than the Sony A7r5? I have both cameras and DR is absolutely the same, as is IQ, the only difference is in color rendition, but this is a matter of taste. Perhaps you can refer to some published tests?

[rsh]

It should  be a terrific camera for those that want and/or need what the SL3 will offer, and we will know in March.  In the meantime, I agree with Jaap in his post # 1418 above.

[jaapv]

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40 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't think this is really a fair criticism. People invest a lot of time, learning and workflow adaptation and very substantial money into a camera and lens lineup like this, and it is totally reasonable that they are upset if after four years they are not impressed by the update...that means most likely waiting another four-five years for a new model (meaning up to 10 years past state of the art), or potentially abandoning an entire system. Maybe it is not a big deal if you are an amateur and flit from camera to camera all the time, but especially for pros it can be a big deal.

I agree that it is a bit too early to freak out, however, haha.

I hear you, but I don't agree. Pros that are within the Leica ecosystem and can afford it are certainly not the least successful ones, and would react in a more businesslike manner - and be aware that there are more excellent camera choices in the L alliance, with a scala of use cases.

[Jeff S]

26 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

the triple resolution of the M11 does not show any major noise improvements at lower resolution.

So it is not like having a 24MP and a 60 MP sensor.

 

 

Note that I said if Leica sees the need, not if others do. They market it as something special.

Jeff

[trickness]

Let’s say the leaked photo and specs are correct.

Leica is a company that makes incremental improvements on their cameras going back 100 years. The SL3 would seem to be exactly in line with this philosophy.

I think it’s completely naïve to expect groundbreaking features every time one of these cameras is updated. And also when they do try to pack too much new technology into an evolving package, you get hot garbage like the M11. It’s not their strong suit.

Some of these incremental improvements are features that people complained about the SL2 not having… phase detect auto focus, tilt screen, USB-C charging, reduced weight/size. And then you get the other flavor of the month features like triple resolution, and that copyright stuff, both of which at the end of the day aren’t really key motivators to get anyone to spend money on this camera.

Most of this stuff puts them at least on par with other products in the marketplace, for the moment anyway. There may be some people out there who weren’t giving the SL series serious consideration, because it was missing many of the features mentioned above; and now, they just might buy it.

So yeah, no “golly gee whiz pop pow this thing is blowing my mind”, but incremental improvements that the marketplace had been asking for.

Expecting this camera to be anything else was wishful thinking. I think Leica is way too small a company and accordingly, very cautious. So they iterate. They can do that because of their history. They’re almost expected to do that because of their history.

Some people have to get every new version of the M that comes out and they sell off the previous version like it’s got some kind of disease. I’ve got several friends who shoot the 240, have no desire to upgrade to later versions and take fantastic photographs. I certainly don’t think any of the technology in the M11 enables anybody to take a better photograph than they could with a 240.

And I expect it will be the same with whatever the SL3 turns out to be. Perhaps I’ll buy one cheap when the SL4 comes out; as for now I’m quite happy with my SL2, which is the best camera I’ve ever used.
 

 

 

[la1402]

48 minutes ago, Smogg said:

May I ask, where did you get the idea that the M11 has more DR than the Sony A7r5? I have both cameras and DR is absolutely the same, as is IQ, the only difference is in color rendition, but this is a matter of taste. Perhaps you can refer to some published tests?

I would be curious about that too. I also have both and cannot confirm the M11 to be better in terms of DR or noise at all. 

[frankchn]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

That's only if they use the Sony's 2019 60MP sensor. That's not given. The M11 has better performance (DR and IQ) than the A7r, even though many believe that they use the "same sensor." Maybe Leica got more out of the sensor, which isn't impossible, or maybe it's not the same as the  A7r4, A7r5, and Sigma fp-l.

CineD will probably publish a full lab test as soon as the embargo lifts, so we'll compare actual numbers.

Measured dynamic range from Bill Claff looks pretty close across the Q3, M11, and A7R5: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Leica Q3,Sony ILCE-7RM5

The portrait and landscape scores are also very close between the A7R5 and the M11 on DXOMark as well. The M11 has a better low light ISO number, but I am not sure how that is derived or if it is impacted by in-camera processing.

In any case, I think metrics show that the sensors in question are quite close to each other.

Edited February 14, 2024 by frankchn

[Planetwide]

I'm going to assume that Leica is using an updated sensor. Personally, a smaller, lighter, more flexible camera is very welcome. One of the main criticisms of the SL system has been weight, and I am glad to see Leica address that. I want the tilt screen, and I hope that it will also tilt sideways like the S1r does. I welcome faster processing, better AF, better high ISO, and hopefully very good colour science. So here's hoping that this comes true...

While I understand minimalism, the camera also has to compete with other brands. 

[Camaro5]

I think the specs of the SL-3 look good and I'm sure there will be improvements.  How those translate into the real world are yet to be seen.  I'm not one to jump into something until all the bugs have been worked out of it and I can at least see some images.   

I may move up to this eventually but for now my current kit is serving me well.  

[SJH]

On 2/13/2024 at 1:09 PM, BernardC said:

It's the opposite: PDAF is less accurate, but faster. Most cameras switch to CDAF once PDAF has done the rough focus. Of course, that's not possible during burst shooting, but those sorts of shots are generally less focus-sensitive (close is good enough).

Leica designed all of the SL lenses for fast focus from the start, with the possible exception of the Summilux. They all have low-inertia focusing groups, and high-end motors.

Yes but Sony was in exactly the same position yet has found the need to upgrade its lenses, equally Sigma and Tamron are introducing new faster motors e.g. Sigma 50 1.4 DG DN. 

[LocalHero1953]

Disclaimer: I'm a geologist, not an electronics engineer. 

I guess that a sensor that is introduced from scratch in 2019 does not remain unchanged, except in pixels, in subsequent years. Is it not likely that the makers find they can tweak more performance out of the same basic design as the years go by? They could be taking a leaf out of the aircraft manufacturer's book: the SL3 may incorporate the 737 Max version of the 2019 chip😬.

[padam]

No matter how people might try to spin it, it is 5-year-old technology. Still, Leica seemed to be doing just fine even when they were farther behind regarding sensors, and this BSI one can still be considered cutting edge for stills regarding dynamic range or ISO despite still being the highest resolution in this size (for now).
Where it fails is other things like video, silent operation, and AF for action would be much better with a faster readout sensor, since subjects would be recognised much better and it could be calculated in more frequent periods. (over 100 times per second)
The other dilemma is simply the same as Q2 vs Q3: while everything is there on test charts and whatnot, the difference simply isn't that big in real world use and there is no "game-changing" upgrade either, while I felt the IBIS, EVF and other goodies really made the SL2(S) a whole lot more usable than an SL.

[frankchn]

25 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Disclaimer: I'm a geologist, not an electronics engineer. 

I guess that a sensor that is introduced from scratch in 2019 does not remain unchanged, except in pixels, in subsequent years. Is it not likely that the makers find they can tweak more performance out of the same basic design as the years go by? They could be taking a leaf out of the aircraft manufacturer's book: the SL3 may incorporate the 737 Max version of the 2019 chip😬.

Best not use the 737 Max to describe new cameras -- next thing you know, the flip up LCD will just fall out of the camera 😀

Edited February 14, 2024 by frankchn

[Tailwagger]

29 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Does anybody remember the more recent criticism of Q3, even after the launch? Launched almost a year ago, it is still out of stock everywhere.

True, but the audience and appeal of the Q is vasty different than for the SL.  Haven't followed it closely, but a quick check shows the X100 backordered and out of stock as well. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, tom0511 said:

I wonder if it is a strategy to produce less than demand just to make the product more desirable ?

That sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Leica's profits will increase if they sell more cameras. Throttling production can only help eBay resellers. 

Small producers like Leica cannot increase their initial production by much when demand is high, only to reduce it later by a lot when demand tapers off. 

 

Edited February 14, 2024 by SrMi

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

True, but the audience and appeal of the Q is vasty different than for the SL.  Haven't followed it closely, but a quick check shows the X100 backordered and out of stock as well. 

The story with X100V seems unrelated (TikTok, unexpected increase in demand at a late stage in its existence).