SL3 Rumors

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

13 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

High resolution 24x36 format cameras really haven't improved noise wise in years. I think the A7R3 was the last camera that had a bump on it's predecessor. Look at the A7R5. No sensor upgrade at all. The A7RIV had no noise improvements over the mkIII . What we are getting is small bumps in resolution with little if any noise penalty and deeper faster buffers and processors to remove some speed bottlenecks.

That said I think the SL3 will have a modified PDAF version of the M11 sensor. Seems logical to match the resolution but keep some room for a future S. No one else looks like more than 61MP soon(ish).

Downsampling a high resolution sensor pretty much matches a lower MP sensor anyway.....

Gordon

Unfortunately, downsampling the SL2 image to SL2-2 resolution shows considerably more noise than SL2-S at native resolution. The sensor in SL2 creates beautiful photos, but I keep it at ISO 800 or lower. The sensor in M11 and the latest Sony cameras have similar high ISO noise as SL2-S and other 24MP cameras (at the same output).

[SrMi]

21 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

It probably is close enough if you're ok with limiting the M11 to same resolution as the SL2-S. That is the standard for comparisons, but in real world use, I own a high res camera to use it at full resolution.

<snip>

I did not mean at the pixel level since pixel-level comparison has no practical meaning. I want to use SL3 instead of SL2-S at high ISOs without SL2's disadvantage.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

I did not mean at the pixel level since pixel-level comparison has no practical meaning. I want to use SL3 instead of SL2-S at high ISOs without SL2's disadvantage.

If you only want to improve on the SL2 at high ISO, then the 60mp sensor from the M11 certainly fits the bill. 

[Chaemono]

The issue is relatively more pushed shadows noise at high ISO with α7R IV/V, M11, Z7 I/II than with SL2-2, S5 I/II. For high ISO noise per se, there is Topaz DeNoise AI. This is after putting the low res picture in #78 that hdmesa posted through DeNoise AI.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited February 8, 2023 by Chaemono

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The issue is relatively more pushed shadows noise at high ISO with α7R IV/V, M11, Z7 I/II than with SL2-2, S5 I/II. For high ISO noise per se, there is Topaz DeNoise AI. This is after putting the low res picture in #78 that hdmesa posted through DeNoise AI.

 

The shot I posted was C1 defaults with zero edits / no lifted shadows. If I pushed the shadows, it definitely would need some help from AI to mitigate the noise. But in relation to the SL2, the character of the M11 sensor's color noise is much more pleasing, so in most cases, I didn't find noise a problem on the M11.

 

[hansvons]

Downscaling noise down scales noise. It gets smaller, not less. But that discussion is in many use cases moot as most photographs don’t live a life in full resolution glory but are downscaled already to whatever is needed. That’s why a 24p sensor makes still/for a long time sense especially if it’s remarkably well performing in low light situations. 

But the biggest advantage of larger pixels is the ability to capture colour in the shadows. Sensors with smaller pixels can do that as well but need more light.

From my perspective, Leica addresses this discussion/need well with the option to choose between high resolution and high sensitivity in their SL line.

As technology advances, high-resolution sensors will become more sensitive but the same can be said about sensors with larger pixels (and less resolution). That gap won't go away. 

I’m sure that the M11 60MP sensor is a step forward in many regards and not only in resolution. But I would not expect it to miraculously make a large pixel pitch sensor obsolete. 

 

 

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

Downscaling noise down scales noise. It gets smaller, not less. But that discussion is in many use cases moot as most photographs don’t live a life in full resolution glory but are downscaled already to whatever is needed. That’s why a 24p sensor makes still/for a long time sense especially if it’s remarkably well performing in low light situations. 

But the biggest advantage of larger pixels is the ability to capture colour in the shadows. Sensors with smaller pixels can do that as well but need more light.

From my perspective, Leica addresses this discussion/need well with the option to choose between high resolution and high sensitivity in their SL line.

As technology advances, high-resolution sensors will become more sensitive but the same can be said about sensors with larger pixels (and less resolution). That gap won't go away. 

I’m sure that the M11 60MP sensor is a step forward in many regards and not only in resolution. But I would not expect it to miraculously make a large pixel pitch sensor obsolete. 

To the best of my knowledge, the benefits of large pixels are urban myths. The size of the sensor matters, pixel pitch does not.

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

To the best of my knowledge, the benefits of large pixels are urban myths. The size of the sensor matters, pixel pitch does not.

I owned a Red Epic Dragon. In its heyday, its only competitor was the Arri Alexa. The Dragon sensor resolved 6k and the Alexa roughly 3K. Both were S-35 mm-sized sensors. Both cameras were cutting edge, and both cameras were built to please the best of the best cinematographers; money was no object.

While the Dragon sensor outperformed the Arri Alev3 sensor in terms of resolution, it was about two stops weaker in sensitivity when comparing image brightness and noise level (ISO values are not standardised), and no downscaling could change that convincingly. The most significant advantage of the Arri was the juice in the shadows, a feature that analogue film was always very good at - if appropriately exposed. I shot many commercials on Arri even though my Red camera sat on the shelf, not earning money.

That is anecdotal and not science-based (I'm not a sensor-developing engineer). But I have similar experiences with digital stills photography. YMMV, of course.

[SrMi]

58 minutes ago, hansvons said:

I owned a Red Epic Dragon. In its heyday, its only competitor was the Arri Alexa. The Dragon sensor resolved 6k and the Alexa roughly 3K. Both were S-35 mm-sized sensors. Both cameras were cutting edge, and both cameras were built to please the best of the best cinematographers; money was no object.

While the Dragon sensor outperformed the Arri Alev3 sensor in terms of resolution, it was about two stops weaker in sensitivity when comparing image brightness and noise level (ISO values are not standardised), and no downscaling could change that convincingly. The most significant advantage of the Arri was the juice in the shadows, a feature that analogue film was always very good at - if appropriately exposed. I shot many commercials on Arri even though my Red camera sat on the shelf, not earning money.

That is anecdotal and not science-based (I'm not a sensor-developing engineer). But I have similar experiences with digital stills photography. YMMV, of course.

I am talking about still photography. If you have the same sensor technology, larger pixels do not help. Whatever a sensor with larger pixels accomplishes, a sensor with smaller pixels can achieve as well, but not vice versa. That statement does not hold if sensor technologies are different, e.g., SL2 vs. SL2-S.

[PBart]

A very important feature I'd like to see is much better live view resolution when doing tethered direct capture in studio. I'm a food photographer who works with a stylist. The stylist greatly relies on the live view but the Leica SL2 has terrible clarity when using it in Capture One. The Leica app is still useless. I tried contacting Leica about this a few times and no one seems to know what I'm talking about.

A clear live view is crucial for any professional level camera.

I'd like a flip screen or a Leica made optional screen to add on like their own Atomos.

60mp would be nice but seem like Leica is still trying to catch up. If they want to lead, we need higher than 60mp. I could sure use it for my commercial work.

 

[Mak67]

Pbart why don't you just plug an HDMI video screen (for your stylist) ? Some are large enough for the job .

Edited February 9, 2023 by Mak67

[Paul2660]

Atomos screens work but none of the camera info is transferred to the screen. No focus point, exposure info etc.  Connection is easy via HDMI port and I use an adapter that allows you to attach the monitor to the hot shoe. 
 

Atomos battery is huge however and gets in the way at times. 
 

Sorry to here C1 live view is not that good I had planned to try that with the iPad version of C1 tethered to the SL2. 
 

BTW I fully agree that Leica needs to have a LCD that is tillable. Hope that the SL3 will have that. It would be a first. 
 

Also not sure that the current 60MP sensor will be allowing much more ISO push. The same sensor which is in the Sigma FL-P which I have doesn’t seem to have much more head room. Especially shadow push. And looking at raw comparisons on DP Review shows the same. The AR75 actually seems to show a bit more noise over the AR74 and they share the same sensor. 
 

Paul 

[geoffreyg]

There are several important feature upgrades being discussed here, and its easy to want many if not all of them. But while the SL2 really shines on many levels (flexibility being one), the weight and size for me are a no-go. For some, this is not an issue, so its about the features and upgrades. For those who appreciate the CL, anything that continues in the smaller size is a winner... 

 

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, geoffreyg said:

while the SL2 really shines on many levels (flexibility being one), the weight and size for me are a no-go.

The new smaller lenses make it more likely that Leica will release a second/smaller line of L-mount cameras. There wasn't much point when the smallest Leica lens was an APO-Summicron, but a CL-size camera could work with a small kit zoom (there's a new rumour of an 18-50) and a few small primes.

[MediaFotografie]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

The new smaller lenses make it more likely that Leica will release a second/smaller line of L-mount cameras. There wasn't much point when the smallest Leica lens was an APO-Summicron, but a CL-size camera could work with a small kit zoom (there's a new rumour of an 18-50) and a few small primes.

what do you think about this rumored 18-50?

if it‘s an existeng lens it will be Sigma‘s 18-50/2.8 Contemporary- and APS-C    😞 

[dem331]

 

12 minutes ago, MediaFotografie said:

what do you think about this rumored 18-50?

if it‘s an existeng lens it will be Sigma‘s 18-50/2.8 Contemporary- and APS-C    😞 

Seems very unlikely.  

[MediaFotografie]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb dem331:

 

Seems very unlikely.  

I very much wish you were right!

On the other hand, since 2017 we have only come to know the APO Summicrons as real Leica optics, and even this series is not finished yet; everything else is somehow more or less improved optics from Sigma or Panasonic. So I suspect that the 18-50 will also be of this type - and there is only the (good) Sigma with APS-C. 

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, MediaFotografie said:

I very much wish you were right!

On the other hand, since 2017 we have only come to know the APO Summicrons as real Leica optics, and even this series is not finished yet; everything else is somehow more or less improved optics from Sigma or Panasonic. So I suspect that the 18-50 will also be of this type - and there is only the (good) Sigma with APS-C. 

The rumor could be false.

[trickness]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:34 PM, geoffreyg said:

There are several important feature upgrades being discussed here, and its easy to want many if not all of them. But while the SL2 really shines on many levels (flexibility being one), the weight and size for me are a no-go. For some, this is not an issue, so its about the features and upgrades. For those who appreciate the CL, anything that continues in the smaller size is a winner... 

 

Try mounting the 75 Nocti to the CL and shooting with it for a few hours, then get back to us. 🤣

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Dex_Keshin]

So Leica Rumors said "expect a new SL camera (SL3?) in September – November timeframe." 

And a member from the new 35 50 Summicron thread replied "SL3 won't be on the market before 2024.
The boss of my Leica Store had a 3 days meeting with Leica HQ. SL3 won't be out before 2024, it's a fact."

I hope there will be a new SL Camera as soon as possible. However, if both information are believable, it is possible that there will be another SL camera on the pipeline. Because Leica Rumors is not sure about the exact model, and the member is so sure there is no "SL3" for this year.

Perhaps SL3-S? 

Or a SL-E that could be a rebadged SL2(-S)? (Since there is also a rumour about a Q-E, which claims to be the same as Q2) 

Or a rebadged S5II and manufactured by Panasonic (Just like LX100II & D-Lux 7), but I doubt Leica wants to put a fan inside the camera.