About to buy my first M. (M10,M10R or M11)

[RMeier]

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vor 25 Minuten schrieb Herr Barnack:

@RMeier  If you decide to go with the M11, I would say use only SanDisk SD cards -

https://youtu.be/qtnqZBKPGs0

 

Thanks

I think I will go with the M10-R anyway and safe the money for some glas..  

[davidvanchu]

44 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

If finding a concerning thread is the basis, one can do that for each and every digital M..

That said, my M10-R and M10M have worked without issue.

Jeff

That M10-R thread having 8 replies vs the M11 thread which currently has 557 replies says a lot.

[dpitt]

Welcome Reto.

The M10R would be my advice to you.
Seems like you have a good grasp of what a rangefinder is and what a Leica M will be. You wil probably like any of the models, but here are the reasons why I would buy one at this moment:

1. If you find one with factory warranty, don’t worry. I have had M8 as M9 bodies sent to Leica Wetzlar, both second hand and the warranty (carry over) was never an issue.
2. Leica M is cutting edge because it is such an out of the box design. Most parts need to be custom designed (RF, sensor, firmware…) so almost nothing comes of the shelf like with some more mainstream products. That is why despite their best efforts Leica M models have teething issues at most major releases - M8 - M240 - M11?, each one had a follow up model that was more mature. So it seems prudent to wait a while with the M11 to me. 
3. I like second hand better than new. The first scratch on a new M will cost you dearly, and even in mint condition it still looses more value in the first year. The only brand new M I owned  was an upgrade M9 traded for my ‘coffee stain’ M8. I unwrapped it, used it for some test shots and quickly wrapped it again because I was afraid to damage it in some way by using it. In general I take great care of my gear but small scratches on the top or screen can always happen. I decided to sell it and bought a badly used M with a nice Summicron 50 in good working condition and still had some money to spare. Never regretted this, because I now had a camera I could use without holding back, and after 10 years it is still working well, looks no worse than it did the first day I saw it (with a few scratches extra but not many) and with the free Summicron I made 1000s of lovely pictures.
   When sensor corrosion showed up, the sensor was replaced in 2016 free of charge (saved by Leica’s flexible goodwill out of warranty policy. Thanks Leica 👏🕺👍)
   If I would not occasionally crop heavy, the 18 MP M9 would be plenty for me. Maybe someday a badly used M10R will remedy that and add some stops in low light.
4. I will always need a second battery, even though I seldomly change batteries or lenses in the field. The piece of mind to have a ‘reserve’ if you run out is enough for me. Once you are on the second battery, you can start conserving power to make it last long enough to the charger. It's the same with cars, if the meter would not have a reserve indicator, where you still have some km when the warning light comes on, it would not be a good car for me.
5. I do not know any solution as compact and performant as the M with some small M lens. Ideal if you do not want to take much weight with you. If you really want to travel light, some collapsible lenses make a pocketable package which will blow away your A7RIII combination and you have to leave it at home anyway because it is too heavy 😀

Enjoy your new M!

Edited December 28, 2022 by dpitt

[Jeff S]

38 minutes ago, davidvanchu said:

That M10-R thread having 8 replies vs the M11 thread which currently has 557 replies says a lot.

I could have linked a half dozen more threads. In fact, I linked to two other threads in that thread in post #2… another 200 replies right there. Nothing new under the sun. Oh, and out of the 557 replies, count how many actual people experiencing freezes vs others just repeatedly posting.

Jeff

Edited December 28, 2022 by Jeff S

[M Street Photographer]

As if we didn't have enough "bigger, further, better", technik run "megapixels, ISO, stabilization, dynamics", no, now it's also about which type of camera has more contributions than another.
Take this plea "Quality over quantity" and good things speak for themselves.

[Jeff S]

51 minutes ago, Musky said:

 

I think one can make these threads about any digital camera ever made. 😀

It’s understandable to have some issues after launch. The other M10R thread the guy had an issue with a non responsive camera and got it replaced. No problems. 

What worries me about this M11 fiasco is we are still here after a year. Doesn’t seem to be a random customer who gets a faulty device, which can happen to anyone any brand. This seems to be a real problem with the M11. I’m not quite sure it’s just firmware related. 

After a year this M11 forum is still basically about the camera not working. This isn’t good. 
 

YMMV

You joined the forum last month.  I’ve been through this cycle many times here since 2009, with every new model reinforcing my decision not to be an early adopter. And models with substantially new features/technology being more prone to lingering issues.  
 

The M9 (first digital M with ‘full frame’ sensor) issues, for instance, makes the M11 issues seem tame by comparison, and that’s before the eventual corrosion issues.  For more than a year, the forum was loaded with complaints about freezes, buffer issues, SD card compatibility, cracked sensors, bad colors, red edges, etc.  More threads than you probably care to search, over a prolonged period . And yet, despite all that,  the M9 platform is still highly regarded by many today.  

So stick around; this too will pass.. or not… we’ll see. Keep in mind, too, that all the issues surrounding prior models did not also include a pandemic or supply chain issues affecting parts, manufacturing and distribution issues across the board for most all companies.

Jeff

[RMeier]

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb dpitt:

Welcome Reto.

The M10R would be my advice to you.
Seems like you have a good grasp of what a rangefinder is and what a Leica M will be. You wil probably like any of the models, but here are the reasons why I would buy one at this moment:

....

Enjoy your new M!

Thank you so much for your post! It feels like the M10-R will be the perfect camera for me right now. Feels good that I don't burn all of my budget on the Camera itself (m11) and rather safe some for accessories and a lens. I will buy used with warranty for sure.

 

Many thanks an have a great one!
Reto

[M Street Photographer]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb RMeier:

Thank you so much for your post! It feels like the M10-R will be the perfect camera for me right now. Feels good that I don't burn all of my budget on the Camera itself (m11) and rather safe some for accessories and a lens. I will buy used with warranty for sure.

 

Many thanks an have a great one!
Reto

Please keep us posted if you find any,camera and lens. Thanks

[RMeier]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb M Street Photographer:

Please keep us posted if you find any,camera and lens. Thanks

Sure thing! Thanks guys, learned a lot from you all! 👏

[Jeff S]

28 minutes ago, Musky said:

, YMMV

No wonder, as you weren’t around for years to endlessly discuss… even up to the formal apology from Leica execs posted right here on the forum when the corrosion issues later emerged.  The M11 is in relatively early stage.

Jeff

[jakontil]

6 hours ago, Jeff S said:

You joined the forum last month.  I’ve been through this cycle many times here since 2009, with every new model reinforcing my decision not to be an early adopter. And models with substantially new features/technology being more prone to lingering issues.  
 

The M9 (first digital M with ‘full frame’ sensor) issues, for instance, makes the M11 issues seem tame by comparison, and that’s before the eventual corrosion issues.  For more than a year, the forum was loaded with complaints about freezes, buffer issues, SD card compatibility, cracked sensors, bad colors, red edges, etc.  More threads than you probably care to search, over a prolonged period . And yet, despite all that,  the M9 platform is still highly regarded by many today.  

So stick around; this too will pass.. or not… we’ll see. Keep in mind, too, that all the issues surrounding prior models did not also include a pandemic or supply chain issues affecting parts, manufacturing and distribution issues across the board for most all companies.

Jeff

He reminded me of someone but joined some time ago until…  

anyway i notice some users reporting battery fail to charge, while my m11 stop working with viso which seems very isolated problem, however more users also seem to be om the better self after last firmware upgrade

[Wandering Photographer]

I have both a M10-R and a M11. I use both with their Visoflex viewers. I focus with the range finder and frame and adjust the exposure balance with the Visoflex and thumb wheel (real time Zone System — photo preview with half press of shutter button). Prior to the release of the version 1.6.0.0 firmware for the M11, I preferred the M10-R. But with the latest firmware the M11 freezes have disappeared and I now prefer the M11 as it gets GPS more reliably from my iPhone than the M10-R does from the Visoflex. I go on two to three hour hikes and sometimes need to swap batteries two times for the M10-R. The M11 is still going strong with 70-80% of the battery power left. I turn the cameras on at the beginning of the hike and turn them off at the conclusion. If you are doing all day hikes, I would recommend taking two to three extra batteries if you are using an M10-R. With an M11, you should probably take one extra battery, but probably will not need it. I also use Nikon cameras which I turn off when not using, but when I turn them on, they are fully functional by the time I get the camera up to my eye. The Leica M cameras are not so fast, which is why I leave them on. Of course the Leicas weigh a lot less and are less bulky than the Nikons.

[ianforber]

14 hours ago, RMeier said:

Sure thing! Thanks guys, learned a lot from you all! 👏

Welcome to the forum!

Despite you having already made up your mind, I thought I’d chip in as your shooting style sounds similar to mine. I mainly use my camera when hiking and rarely take more than a few pictures each day and only use the rear screen sparingly. I’m not into Astrophotography but do like to take infrared pictures which, although nowhere near as lengthy, can still involve shutter speeds of about 5-6 minutes. I chose the M11 for several reasons including the design of the bottom plate, battery life and the ability to turn off noise reduction for long exposures. I’m happy with the M11 but reckon that the M10-R would be just as good for you anyway if you are keeping the Sony for astro work. For what it’s worth, my M11 battery lasts me about a week when on a hiking holiday, in which I will probably take about 400 pictures, mostly DNG +JPEG so if you shoot anything like that, I reckon a M10-R battery will last a decent time. 

Have fun!

[harmen]

Don’t underestimate all the subtle improvements in the M11:

• Shoot at any aperture, thanks to electronic shutter
• Superb colours
• Battery that you don’t have to think about
• Good exposure measurement (if you don’t do full manual)
• Light weight (in black)
• Further improved dynamic range to make photos look more natural

[charlesphoto99]

18 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The M9 (first digital M with ‘full frame’ sensor) issues, for instance, makes the M11 issues seem tame by comparison, and that’s before the eventual corrosion issues.  

The big problem with this statement is that the M9 was the first of its kind (ok second if one counts M8). We are now on what, the fourth generation since then? I would hope Leica get it right by at least.... the seventh generation. Or maybe we need to hold out for eighth or ninth? Or maybe they'll never get it right and pulling batteries ala M9 style is just part and and parcel of the Leica 'experience.' See my point? 

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The big problem with this statement is that the M9 was the first of its kind (ok second if one counts M8). We are now on what, the fourth generation since then? I would hope Leica get it right by at least.... the seventh generation. Or maybe we need to hold out for eighth or ninth? Or maybe they'll never get it right and pulling batteries ala M9 style is just part and and parcel of the Leica 'experience.' See my point? 

As I wrote, new tech/platform/features exacerbate the problems. The M8 was obviously the quintessential new tech, and its issues are now legend.  The M8.2 sorted most issues (I skipped the M8 and had two M8.2s without any issues).
 

The M9, as I also wrote, went full frame, and I listed many related issues as a result. The M240 brought some stability, but suffered from fat-shaming, CMOS and video haters, etc, and wasn’t without issues. The M10 brought another platform, solving many concerns, but still not without issues, as a simple search shows.  Even the M10 Monochrom and M10-R came out with some reports of freezes, stuck shutter buttons, etc, although the M10 was clearly a more stable platform than the M9. I finally added a used, fully serviced, M9 Monochrom in 2017, after issues were well sorted.
 

The M11, another new platform, wasn’t merely an M10 refinement; rather it introduced a lot more new tech… new processor, new triple resolution sensor, internal storage, new metering system, etc. It’s exactly why I steered clear and instead added the M10-R to complement my M10M, but only after waiting two years.
 

No shocker about this M11 situation to me, especially given today’s environment with supply chain, parts and staffing issues leading to delays across industries. Anyone surprised by this hasn’t been paying attention IMO regarding prior M releases, in addition to the problems related to product availability and service, etc in today’s world. 
 

Do I think Leica should do better, and not use customers as beta testers? Yes.  Am I surprised where we are. No.

Jeff

Edited December 29, 2022 by Jeff S

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, Jeff S said:

As I wrote, new tech/platform/features exacerbate the problems. The M8 was obviously the quintessential new tech, and its issues are now legend.  The M8.2 sorted most issues (I skipped the M8 and had two M8.2s without any issues).
 

The M9, as I also wrote, went full frame, and I listed many related issues as a result. The M240 brought some stability, but suffered from fat-shaming, CMOS and video haters, etc, and wasn’t without issues. The M10 brought another platform, solving many concerns, but still not without issues, as a simple search shows.  Even the M10 Monochrom and M10-R came out with some reports of freezes, stuck shutter buttons, etc, although the M10 was clearly a more stable platform than the M9. I finally added a used, fully serviced, M9 Monochrom in 2017, after issues were well sorted.
 

The M11, another new platform, wasn’t merely an M10 refinement; rather it introduced a lot more new tech… new processor, new triple resolution sensor, internal storage, new metering system, etc. It’s exactly why I steered clear and instead added the M10-R to complement my M10M, but only after waiting two years.
 

No shocker about this M11 situation to me, especially given today’s environment with supply chain, parts and staffing issues leading to delays across industries. Anyone surprised by this hasn’t been paying attention IMO regarding prior M releases, in addition to the problems related to product availability and service, etc in today’s world. 
 

Do I think Leica should do better, and not use customers as beta testers? Yes.  Am I surprised where we are. No.

Jeff

In addition, much of M11 development occurred during Covid lockdowns with much of work being done remotely. Still, the camera should have been more stable.

[Jeff S]

16 minutes ago, SrMi said:

In addition, much of M11 development occurred during Covid lockdowns with much of work being done remotely. 

That’s what I was referring to;  the delays, supply chain issues, staffing issues, etc, all derived from that.   And, yes, as I wrote, Leica should do better and not continue to use customers as beta testers.  So, we agree.

Jeff

 

[Kiwimac]

11 hours ago, harmen said:

Don’t underestimate all the subtle improvements in the M11:

• Shoot at any aperture, thanks to electronic shutter
• Superb colours
• Battery that you don’t have to think about
• Good exposure measurement (if you don’t do full manual)
• Light weight (in black)
• Further improved dynamic range to make photos look more natural

Also I think a really big improvement is 60MP. 
 

It will facilitate the range of shots you can get with just one lens. The M to me is about freedom, which includes freedom from endless lens choices and carrying the endless lenses. 
 

With 60MP and just a 50 or 35 you’ll get good resolution crops that would have required a 70 or 90 before. Ok not exactly the equivalent in DOF etc but good enough if need be. 

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[M Street Photographer]

The crop is one thing, the telephoto effect is another.
Normally you don't have 60 Mp to then work with lower quality.
I would be interested to know whether at some point, like Sony went from 40 to 60 Mp, there will also be some owners of the M11 who will honestly say "I didn't need 60 Mp". This effect only occurred with Sony users, from the RIII to the R IV, after 1 - 1.5 years.

Even though I went this route myself, from R III to R IV, I said afterwards that the 60 Mp is not necessary for me, which is one of the reasons why I part with my Sony equipment. Especially now that I can happily take pictures again with an M 10 R.