Does anyone use the S system "to be contrary"?

[Me Leica!]

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I should elaborate on that title a bit, because it's not intended in any way to be a dig at the S. Quite the opposite, if anything.

I've started reading this S-centred forum since I became curious about the system (still am).

There seems to be an undercurrent in some posts that the S-system has been "left in the dust" by Fuji, Hasselblad, etc. Mirrorless is the new black, the S only has one focus point, the lenses are huge, and on it goes. And Leica seems to have little interest in furthering it; it's a bit like what the Japanese would call a Galapagos system; isolated and not going anywhere outside its core fan group.

(I have used the Hasselblad X1D: stunning colour and tremendous image quality, but the buggiest, glitchiest camera I've ever used; and the only camera which rivalled the Sigma DP Merrills for bad battery life. I also briefly used the GFX 50S: no glitches, not far off the Blad in IQ, but the experience of using it was extremely uninspiring).

Now, I have quite a perverse streak, and often when the vox pop says that something is no good, that makes me want to check it out because, well...my favourite analogy is that JK Rowling and Dan Brown sell more books than Will Self or Haruki Murakami, so "they must be better writers!"; there are also likely many musically equivalent analogies but they are too depressing to contemplate.

Does anyone use the S system with this kind of attitude? A sort of "the more you denigrate it, the more I want to use it"? Or do you pay no attention to the comments, brickbats, etc?

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Me Leica!

[LeicaR10]

Me Leica!,   Perhaps a bit of S system history is in order.  The S camera was developed by Leica in the mid 2000s and came on scene in 2008.  Leica fielded a complete set of superb S lenses to go with multiple S camera models upgrades all the way to the current and most excellent S3 at 64 MPs.  The S camera saved Leica from bankruptcy and was a game changer in many ways for digital MF cameras.  It was the first designed and built true digital camera system, long before Hasselblad, Fuji and others came to the party. Yes, there was the hickup with S lens AF motors but that was all resolved by Leica.  Most important, the camera is for a niche market for pro and well heeled amateur photographers who need/want a complete and most superb MF system. Its niche is mostly for fashion, portrait, landscape and some other minor niches type photography. When I had my fine art landscape photography business, I used the S system for my work for 13+ years.  My deep pocket clients would only purchase prints made with the S system.  I tried other MF cameras and my cleints left, I went back to the S and they came back and brought others with them.  Based on my experience, the S is in a class unto itself.  No other MF system comes close to the S lenses ability that use no firmware to deliver cinematic renderings and stunning color.  Leica has NOT deserted the S system as some think.  In fact, Leica has offically stated it is fully committed to the making the S4 that will be mirrorless and its due out in 2025.  I suspect there will be a complete set of new S lenses for the S4, but this is based on what I suspect and know from my contacts with Leica senior management over the many years concerning the S system.  Right now, if you were so inclined to try the S system, you can find excellent used S007 and S3 camera bodies at Leica Store Miami and Camera West.  The same goes for the S lenses.  If you want to read about the S lenses, here is a link for you to try:     https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/04/the-definitive-guide-to-leica-s-lenses/

Last, the S4 will be most likely compatible with the current S lenses if new S lenses are fielded, just like the SL system can use M and R lenses on the L mount.  

Hope this helps.  Happy New Year.   r/ Mark

Edited December 26, 2022 by LeicaR10

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[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

I got my S3 in March 2020 before official market launching. I feel it`s a real successor of my former R-DMR-System. The MF on the top. I like to use my S3 when it matters. That means in cases I want to take pictures = landscaps of highest quality. But it´s a big boy of nearly 3 kg plus adds and a little bit heavy for an old man like me. Consequently I take my M 10-R plus the new APO-Summicron 35 mm more and more especially to run through the "wilderness".

Regards Hans and Happy New Year, too.

[Guest]

Some people are just old school. That's what the S system represents, centered around an optical viewfinder the likes of which they don't build any more; and a full blown mirror box, well dampened, responsive, accurate and reliable. My S006 is an M9 on steroids, with a very distinct color signature. There is a different, curious type of strength in small production numbers. Better get one before they disappear. 

[albireo_double]

10 hours ago, Me Leica! said:

Does anyone use the S system with this kind of attitude? A sort of "the more you denigrate it, the more I want to use it"? Or do you pay no attention to the comments, brickbats, etc?

I have used and still use several systems with this "perverse" attitude (how about a Rollei Hy6 with a Credo 80 back...😅?) Maybe the S3 is still too modern (and expensive) for this way of thinking. Bottom line for me is the look of the images and the ergonomics / utility in different scenarios. The S excels in the studio or location shoots with a "production style" mindset (assistants, lighting...) but is too heavy (especially the lenses) to bring along when traveling. The OVF is a mixed blessing with the high resolution - not easy to hit focus when shooting people. Frankly, the SL2 is a more capable and usable camera in most scenarios nowadays - accurate and fast AF, sensor stabilisation etc.

If you ask why I still enjoy the Hy6 in this "age of Fuji" : I can shoot film with it, use a waist level or 45 deg viewfinder (don't like to hide my face behind camera when shooting portraits) and some very nice (albeit ageing) Schneider and Zeiss lenses. And being one of a handful of people who still use one (and getting to buy the very last and final specimens of some of the lenses direct from the factory, from the last remaining component sets).

[BernardC]

11 hours ago, Me Leica! said:

Does anyone use the S system with this kind of attitude? A sort of "the more you denigrate it, the more I want to use it"? Or do you pay no attention to the comments, brickbats, etc?

I use the S system for one simple reason: it's the last great SLR system. There are many things that a good SLR does better than anything else.

Mainstream brands have been trying to get out of the SLR market for a long while. Back in the early 2000s, a French photography magazine stated that the cost savings were too high to ignore, and Japanese companies were just biding their time until electronic viewfinders and processors were good enough for serious photographers. Ironically, Leica got there first with the SL. Olympus and Panasonic had mirrorless first, and Sony had full-frame mirrorless, but the user experience was sub-par: tiny, flickering, off-colour low-res viewfinders with huge delays, toy-like bodies and, in Sony's case, terrible over-heating and no weather protection (those early Sony full-frame bodies would actually wick-up moisture and deliver it straight to the electronics!).

The S system doesn't just appeal to me because I am contrary. It delivers a user experience that no other system can. The more expensive SLRs from PhaseOne and Hasselblad are clunky and poorly integrated (I had a Mamiya 645D system for a while), the 35mm SLRs are all gone now, and they got progressively worse over time. I don't know if Canon made their viewfinders worse just to ease the transition to mirrorless. Maybe they just did it to cut cost.

What of the future? I worry that any mirrorless S will only compete with the SL. As Stuart has commented several times, the SL2 already provides stiff competition for the S3 already, if you need resolution and colour. Would an S4 offer me anything over the SL3? I doubt it, I never print 3 meters wide! The only USP I can think of is video, something with the IQ of the SL2-S, but 10K or 12K so you can shoot natively in non-anamorphic 2.4:1. Fuji's medium format video is sub-par, and Hasselblad's is non-existent, so maybe Leica can get their foot in that door.

[Chaemono]

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S3 saves time in post processing. Maybe this is not an issue if someone does his or her own color profiles and uses a gray card for custom WB but I bet the SL3 files won’t be nearly as perfect in terms of color fidelity and skin tones as the S3 files are out-of-the-box. The S3 files basically just require some exposure adjustment. That’s it. 

[Pieter12]

4 hours ago, albireo_double said:

f you ask why I still enjoy the Hy6 in this "age of Fuji" : I can shoot film with it, use a waist level or 45 deg viewfinder (don't like to hide my face behind camera when shooting portraits) and some very nice (albeit ageing) Schneider and Zeiss lenses.

I also shoot a Hy6, having moved from a Rollei 6008 (that I still have and use). Great handling, enormous optical viewfinder (for me, one of the most important features of any SLR or rangefinder) and stunning lenses, second only to the Leica S lenses. Downside is although the factory is still operating after a couple of changes of hands, parts, service and even new cameras and lenses are hard to come by. I shoot mainly B&W film, using a Leaf AFi II 7 digital back for color, because that's about all I could find for the Hy6. Works great for me, though. I like the CCD look and I don't miss not having live view--never had such a thing with film anyway.

[Nick Guttridge]

I use the S2 007 to sync at 1/1000th with the CS lenses. It's a studio camera for me. I rarely take it outside to shoot in ambient light. 

So S system in studio and SL2 outside for me.

I also own an Arca Swiss F Metric which I use with Rodenstock HR glass, 32mm,50mm,70mm & 90mm. For architectural photography. 

The S system is my favourite, I love the one focus point for portraiture. I also love the battery duration. No mirrorless camera I know can compete with the battery life from the S. Just makes life alot easier when on a busy shoot.

Quite possible to buy the S system inexpensively (sort of) second hand now..

 

 

 

[Eclectic Man]

Talk of using the Leica S for reasons of perversity could equally apply to the Leica M and SL systems.  There are cameras from Canon and Nikon with far more extensive lens ranges, much faster autofocus, equal or better resolution sensors, and more extensive flash capabilities.  BUT, I really love my Leica R5, and am becoming enamoured of my SL2 with 16-35, 50 f/2 and 90-280 SL lenses (and R to L adapter).

As for being perverse, a couple of years ago I bought an Intrepid 4x5 MkIV* view camera and 150mm f/5.6 lens, which is a completely different experience.  I have even had to learn how to load dark slides, and at up to £10 per frame shot, one takes one's time and is careful about what exactly one shoots.

The S series of cameras and lenses are by all accounts superb, and, as I see it, cheaper, less environmentally damaging and easier to park than a Ferrari.

* https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/collections/camera

[Sailronin]

I bought the S (006) in 2015 for the "all weather" capability having grown frustrated with my Hasselblad 501CM+CFV 50 digital system in dusty environments (it was impossible to keep dust out when a cooling fan was sucking it into the back).  The 006 is still going strong (after a very long trip to Germany for sensor replacement in 2016) and remains my "go to" camera when conditions are rough, it truly is built like a tank.  When shooting in studio lighting I love the OVF as I work a lot with black backgrounds and EVF on the 907x or SL2-S are pretty useless in the dark whereas with the S I can compose and focus with no issues.  Were I still working an S3 would be under serious consideration but as long as the 006 soldiers on I'll stick with her.   

On the contrarian side, I still lug an 8x10 Sinar P out once in a while when I want to get my hands dirty in some Rodinal!

Edited January 19, 2023 by Sailronin

[Herr Barnack]

I thought using the M system was being contrary.

[John McMaster]

As an example of the toughness, I dropped my S(007) about 4' onto tiles - it landed on the RRS bracket.  It still turned on and AFed, but when I went to take a picture it was not in focus in the OVF and the mirror did not flip up.   Took lens off and saw that mirror was at a slight angle, gently pushed it until it looked right and now working properly...

john

[jip]

I take photos with the S006 and S007, I'm happy with the photos. I had a X1DII and I sold it. That says enough I think. 

[davidmknoble]

@Me Leica!, I have been using the S system since somewhere around 2018.  One of the draws was the ability to look through the lens.  It is the same as using the old SLR systems, such as the Leica R.  The glass is beautiful.  That aside, for me at least, it is intentional photography.  I do not walk around with an S on my neck and take street shots.  I'm looking for something to photograph that allows me to use a tripod and think a bit.  Some have been successful and had fun using it as a walk around.

The key is the format.  Larger surface sizes for film or sensors, allow a higher focal length to cover the entire frame.  I am not talking about pixel count, but physical size.  So, for the S, the 70mm lens is the standard lens and close to a 55mm lens on a 35mm camera.  However, on a 35mm camera the 70mm lens has a slimmer depth of field for the same aperture than a 50mm lens.  The same is true on an S.  The 70mm lens produces an image the looks like it was shot with a 55mm lens, but with the depth of field of a 70mm lens.  This may sound confusing, but the real beauty is with the wide angle lenses.  The 24mm lens on the S acts like a 19mm lens, but has the distortion of a 24mm lens, meaning very little compared to a 19mm.  

It is certainly not for everyone, but since I have started using the S, I also began playing with a Hasselblad which shoots 120mm film and the negatives are 6cm by 6cm (or 2 1/4 inches square).  That is huge compared to 35mm and enlargements are incredible as a result.

I don't believe the camera is the reason to use the S system, but the lenses are.  David Farkas wrote this article a good while ago, but it is still the best explanation I've seen.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/04/the-definitive-guide-to-leica-s-lenses/

 

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

@Me Leica!, I have been using the S system since somewhere around 2018.  One of the draws was the ability to look through the lens.  It is the same as using the old SLR systems, such as the Leica R.  The glass is beautiful.  That aside, for me at least, it is intentional photography.  I do not walk around with an S on my neck and take street shots.  I'm looking for something to photograph that allows me to use a tripod and think a bit.  Some have been successful and had fun using it as a walk around.

The key is the format.  Larger surface sizes for film or sensors, allow a higher focal length to cover the entire frame.  I am not talking about pixel count, but physical size.  So, for the S, the 70mm lens is the standard lens and close to a 55mm lens on a 35mm camera.  However, on a 35mm camera the 70mm lens has a slimmer depth of field for the same aperture than a 50mm lens.  The same is true on an S.  The 70mm lens produces an image the looks like it was shot with a 55mm lens, but with the depth of field of a 70mm lens.  This may sound confusing, but the real beauty is with the wide angle lenses.  The 24mm lens on the S acts like a 19mm lens, but has the distortion of a 24mm lens, meaning very little compared to a 19mm.  

It is certainly not for everyone, but since I have started using the S, I also began playing with a Hasselblad which shoots 120mm film and the negatives are 6cm by 6cm (or 2 1/4 inches square).  That is huge compared to 35mm and enlargements are incredible as a result.

I don't believe the camera is the reason to use the S system, but the lenses are.  David Farkas wrote this article a good while ago, but it is still the best explanation I've seen.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/04/the-definitive-guide-to-leica-s-lenses/

 

The Farkas article was linked in the first response back in December.  No matter, however, as the OP hasn’t commented since starting the thread.

Jeff

[Me Leica!]

12 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The Farkas article was linked in the first response back in December.  No matter, however, as the OP hasn’t commented since starting the thread.

Jeff

I haven't commented, but I have been following the thread. Nice thing about this site (including the other forums / fora...delete as based on level of pedantry), you always get a good set of responses to a question, assuming the question is asked in good faith.

[markc2]

On 2/11/2023 at 5:35 AM, davidmknoble said:

@Me Leica!, I have been using the S system since somewhere around 2018.  One of the draws was the ability to look through the lens.  It is the same as using the old SLR systems, such as the Leica R.  The glass is beautiful.  That aside, for me at least, it is intentional photography.  I do not walk around with an S on my neck and take street shots.  I'm looking for something to photograph that allows me to use a tripod and think a bit.  Some have been successful and had fun using it as a walk around.

The key is the format.  Larger surface sizes for film or sensors, allow a higher focal length to cover the entire frame.  I am not talking about pixel count, but physical size.  So, for the S, the 70mm lens is the standard lens and close to a 55mm lens on a 35mm camera.  However, on a 35mm camera the 70mm lens has a slimmer depth of field for the same aperture than a 50mm lens.  The same is true on an S.  The 70mm lens produces an image the looks like it was shot with a 55mm lens, but with the depth of field of a 70mm lens.  This may sound confusing, but the real beauty is with the wide angle lenses.  The 24mm lens on the S acts like a 19mm lens, but has the distortion of a 24mm lens, meaning very little compared to a 19mm.  

It is certainly not for everyone, but since I have started using the S, I also began playing with a Hasselblad which shoots 120mm film and the negatives are 6cm by 6cm (or 2 1/4 inches square).  That is huge compared to 35mm and enlargements are incredible as a result.

I don't believe the camera is the reason to use the S system, but the lenses are.  David Farkas wrote this article a good while ago, but it is still the best explanation I've seen.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/04/the-definitive-guide-to-leica-s-lenses/

 

Since you've used the Hasselblad, how would you compare the S to it? I use a 501cm and I scan my shots, but do you feel the S is a fast camera like the SL ? I had an R8 but when I saw the viewfinder for the Hasselblad I jumped ship, how do you feel about the S's viewfinder after working with the H?

Thanks!

[davidmknoble]

@markc2, The Hassey CVF system works well with a body like your 501cm.  I just started using the X2D which is like an SL on steroids.  The kit is smaller than the S and has IBIS, which is great for a medium format based system.  (In fact, my guess is that Leica will develop something similar for the S).  However, I spoke with Hasselblad and the lens mount is the weakest point in terms of sealing, and the Hasselblad system is not meant for really wet conditions.  I have used the S in freezing rain with no issues (and 40mph winds on the coast).  To answer your question, I still prefer looking through the S system - it’s 100% optical.  On the other hand, I like the compactness of the X2D. The X2D also has the ability at 100mp to cut the image area in 1/2, still have a 50mp image, but effectively zoomed in.  Not sure the conversion, but using fewer lenses, I can crop like I had more lenses.

I also shot a few images with the Leica R APO 180mm f/2.8 on the X2D (novaflex adapter) and the images were great.  So, I will probably take the X2D and my R9 to Antarctica, and add a spare digital body - CFV, SL or M11P.  Not sure yet - all depends on weight for the last flight!

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[irenedp]

For me, it’s not an intent to be contrarian, but to get what I want in terms of color and definition. 

 I used medium format for work that required detail and size. I had a fuji GFX 50s -which was Ok- and replaced it with a 100 when it came out in 2019. That camera was a major disappointment. I don’t need IBIs and the sharpness was not as good as with the 50s. On the other hand I hated the GFX 100 color rendering. The S2 has beautiful color and was consistently sharper even if it was a much older camera. 

I sold the Fuji system and changed it for an S3 which I got at a very good price. It performs better for what i need, and live view is not an issue at all. For me it is a much better solution than the Fuji. 

Possibly if I did weddings I would think otherwise. But very happy with the S3 for my line of work.