M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[jdlaing]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

The lens corrections yes, but there are a whole series of digital manipulations done by firmware before the DNG is written which cannot be removed. That is the distinction made in the post that you reply to. 

Some folks are never going to get it. They think the .dng is a raw file of exactly what was captured whereas it’s a file of what the engineers tell you it’s what was captured. 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[lct]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

The lens corrections yes, but there are a whole series of digital manipulations done by firmware before the DNG is written which cannot be removed. That is the distinction made in the post that you reply to. 

I'll take your word for it but as i tried to explain above, manipulations i don't see the effects are of little relevance to me. YMMV. 

[jaapv]

You won’t see them as they are baked into the DNG. They are relevant as they determine the data that the rest of the process is based on. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

You won’t see them as they are baked into the DNG. They are relevant as they determine the data that the rest of the process is based on. 

Again i'll take your word for it but things i don't see in photography are just theories to me. When i say i don't see them, re the OT discussion we had above (should we open a new thread?), i mean i don't see any significant difference IQ-wise if i set Leica lens profiles on or off for uncoded lenses besides vignetting i prefer adjusting in PP. I only use those lens profiles for the camera to recognize the focal length of the lens and for me to archive pic files more easily. Works perfectly this way in praxis so, to me at least, the rest is just literature but others' mileage may vary.

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, lct said:

Again i'll take your word for it but things i don't see in photography are just theories to me. When i say i don't see them, re the OT discussion we had above (should we open a new thread?), i mean i don't see any significant difference IQ-wise if i set Leica lens profiles on or off for uncoded lenses besides vignetting i prefer adjusting in PP. I only use those lens profiles for the camera to recognize the focal length of the lens and for me to archive pic files more easily. Works perfectly this way in praxis so, to me at least, the rest is just literature but others' mileage may vary.

Sean Reid has observed and shown differences in IQ when lens corrections are on or off (color drift).

[lct]

9 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Sean Reid has observed and shown differences in IQ when lens corrections are on or off (color drift).

On the M11?

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

30 minutes ago, lct said:

On the M11?

Yes, with 28/2.8 Elmarit (Pre 2016).

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, lct said:

Again i'll take your word for it but things i don't see in photography are just theories to me. When i say i don't see them, re the OT discussion we had above (should we open a new thread?), i mean i don't see any significant difference IQ-wise if i set Leica lens profiles on or off for uncoded lenses besides vignetting i prefer adjusting in PP. I only use those lens profiles for the camera to recognize the focal length of the lens and for me to archive pic files more easily. Works perfectly this way in praxis so, to me at least, the rest is just literature but others' mileage may vary.

YMMV (and obviously does), but I don't want a profile doing anything to the DNGs before I edit it in Capture One. I want to get the actual optical performance of the lens recorded to the DNG. You may consider what the profile does that you cannot remove irrelevant, similar to using a color filter on b&w film – the effect is there recorded to the film and cannot be reversed.

What's been explained to you are not theories, they are real actual changes to the DNG that are applied that you can never remove in any application. You can argue that such changes are irrelevant for your purposes, and if so, then great. But to argue that they are theoretical is like saying it's only theoretical that the Earth is a sphere and not flat.

[lct]

19 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes, with 28/2.8 Elmarit (Pre 2016).

If you mean the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 (11606), i got color shifts issues with it on the M240 but not on the M11 so far. I will check again and will report accordingly.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

What's been explained to you are not theories, they are real actual changes to the DNG that are applied that you can never remove in any application. You can argue that such changes are irrelevant for your purposes, and if so, then great. But to argue that they are theoretical is like saying it's only theoretical that the Earth is a sphere and not flat.

we are still talking about this, i have tried to demonstrated it, but it does not often get into the destination.

Lens profile can do some in post, but they are difficult to do un some lenses and under all conditions.

If you not using a fisheye you won't  see the planet curvature or any color changes. LOL

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

YMMV (and obviously does), but I don't want a profile doing anything to the DNGs before I edit it in Capture One. I want to get the actual optical performance of the lens recorded to the DNG. You may consider what the profile does that you cannot remove irrelevant, similar to using a color filter on b&w film – the effect is there recorded to the film and cannot be reversed.

What's been explained to you are not theories, they are real actual changes to the DNG that are applied that you can never remove in any application. You can argue that such changes are irrelevant for your purposes, and if so, then great. But to argue that they are theoretical is like saying it's only theoretical that the Earth is a sphere and not flat.

We are not talking about profiles. Those are applied after the DNG is written.   It is meaningless to view the processing pipeline to arrive at the DNG this way. Once again: a DNG is NOT sensor output. It is processed and modified sensor output. For example: you cannot remove LENR or pixel mapping from the DNG. Not Leica Often there is primary noise reduction which annoy be reversed from raw. Etc.  Then the processed signal written and then things like profiles added. 

[hdmesa]

9 minutes ago, jaapv said:

We are not talking about profiles. Those are applied after the DNG is written.   It is meaningless to view the processing pipeline to arrive at the DNG this way. Once again: a DNG is NOT sensor output. It is processed and modified sensor output. Then it is written and then things like profiles added. 

I'm not referring to the profile selected in C1/LR, I'm referring to what happens when you select an M lens profile in a digital M camera. Some of those corrections such as edge color shift correction are baked in during the pipeline stage and are not something that can be removed, neither with DNG cleaner software nor in C1/LR.

[jaapv]

That is something different. Profiles are “instructions  to Lightroom” appended to the DNG -either internally or as a sidecar file and are either applied automatically or ignored on DNG conversion as the user instructs. Some of them like edge colour shift etc.   can  indeed not be removed but more or less reversed in PS or LR. The same with black point setting. 

[SrMi]

Just now, jaapv said:

That is something different. Those are “instructions  to Lightroom” appended to the DNG -either internally or as a sidecar file and are either applied automatically or ignored on DNG conversion as the user instructs. 

Vignetting and distortion correction is done with ops in DNGs. The ops can be removed with DNGCleaner or disabled in C1.

The edge color shift is not reversible once applied. This is for a good reason, as color shift correction in post is complicated. 

[Qlan]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

Vignetting and distortion correction is done with ops in DNGs. The ops can be removed with DNGCleaner or disabled in C1.

The edge color shift is not reversible once applied. This is for a good reason, as color shift correction in post is complicated. 

We all agree here (modulo some terminology). The only person that we are trying to convince is lct and I'm done trying 😁

Edited February 27, 2023 by Qlan

[jaapv]

As is colour shift creation   Actually it is quite easy to remove edge colour shift using flat field correction. 

[hdmesa]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

That is something different. Profiles are “instructions  to Lightroom” appended to the DNG -either internally or as a sidecar file and are either applied automatically or ignored on DNG conversion as the user instructs. Some of then like edge colour shift etc.   can  indeed not be removed but reversed in PS or LR. The same with black point setting. 

It is indeed something different. M cameras, when you apply an in-camera profile, they BAKE IN vignetting and edge color shift correction. They do not bake in distortion correction. Test it yourself with a lens that has heavy vignetting at f/1.4 to which Leica would apply corrections – like the 28 Lux. Take a shot with Lens Detection off and one with it on and the 28 Lux profile selected. Open up the DNGs in LR or C1. You will see the one with the profile has less vignetting and you will not be able to turn that off in LR or C1. It's baked in. No third party DNG cleaner can strip it out, either, because it's not in there as instructions, it's done in the pipeline before the DNG is written.

[jaapv]

Exactly. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[hdmesa]

9 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Vignetting and distortion correction is done with ops in DNGs. The ops can be removed with DNGCleaner or disabled in C1.

The edge color shift is not reversible once applied. This is for a good reason, as color shift correction in post is complicated. 

I had not been able to remove vignetting correction via a cleaner from the SL2-S DNGs. Are you sure and have tested this with the M – one unaltered and one cleaned?

Also in C1 with the M DNGs, the vignette correction cannot be turned off – removing the "manufacturer profile" in the Lens Correction panel does nothing. FYI – Lightroom also lets you turn off profile-based corrections now just like C1, at least with newer cameras. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

As is colour shift creation   Actually it is quite easy to remove edge colour shift using flat field correction. 

Don't you have to create a flat field correction for every aperture?