M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[elmars]

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb Henners:

It's a great camera that should only get better as they continue to update the firmware, but ideally it would have started out a little stronger. Once the freezing is a thing of the past and they sort the app out to work properly, then it'll be what most people expected in the first place.

 

vor 9 Stunden schrieb ELAN:

It's quite amazing that Leica doesn't take these issues more seriously.   I'm sure this thread and others like it hurt their business and bottom line.  If I was new to Leica and read all these QC issues I would be hesitant to buy a new Leica product right now.  And if I was the owner of Leica Camera I would urgently redirect company resources to identify the source of these manufacturing defects and QC failures.  And if a camera or lens isn't perfect out of the box I would exchange it on the spot and not send my new customers to stand in a 2-months repair queue.

I made a "Like" to both post, because I think they are both right in a way.

On the one hand, I understand that a complex product like a digital camera from a small company like Leica does not have perfect software. For myself, I am also relaxed.

On the other hand, however, it is annoying that Leica sometimes does not have the ambition to address known errors on its own with great effort. Like with the crashes, similarly with the overexposures, which are sometimes there. Leica has known about both for a long time. From the outside, however, one thinks that they would only act on great pressure from many, while they themselves should be aware that a camera that does not expose correctly and more than rarely crashes is unsuitable for professional use. It's a question of self-importance and economic sense to take care of a good reputation. In digital times, a good reputation is largely determined by software skills.

I am therefore reluctant to say it, but it is probably unfortunately necessary: Everyone affected should complain, at all levels at the same time, and without being immediately dismissive. Here in the forum (Leica finds out), at the dealer, at Leica itself. That seems to be the only thing that helps.

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[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, MLuv said:

I bought my M10R a little over a year ago. 0 problems. I also didn’t notice any benefits for me using the M11.

but he M11 must really tickle you if you are posting on M11 forum. otherwise why even bother.

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, elmars said:

It's a question of self-importance and economic sense to take care of a good reputation. In digital times, a good reputation is largely determined by software skills.

I am therefore reluctant to say it, but it is probably unfortunately necessary: Everyone affected should complain, at all levels at the same time, and without being immediately dismissive. Here in the forum (Leica finds out), at the dealer, at Leica itself. That seems to be the only thing that helps.

+1 or more.  Occasionally I hear worries that LUF discussions of things that aren't right will turn potential users away or contribute to brand ridicule.  Well, nothing is going to stop the criticism of expensive goods made by a small team that really cares about what they are doing, and has been doing it for a long time.  But collaborating in this forum to identify, clarify, and hopefully point to prioritization and resolution of defects is all to the good.  Especially because the first to notice some strange behavior, or some new way to freeze the camera, often doesn't notice precisely how they got there.  This is where discussion to narrow down the cluster of possible causes and determine the frequency with which a problem occurs can be valuable to Leica.  Those who wish to chorus that "I didn't pay $9,999 to be a beta tester!" can be offered another thread elsewhere.  Because jamming most of the function of a modern ARM-powered digital mirrorless into the simple usage envelope of an M Leica is really hard.  A lot of things are happening at once in multiple pipelines, and it does require beta testing to find all the serious things that can go wrong when there are race conditions.

  

[Cobram]

Browsing European online stores (mostly in Italy and Austria) in my search for a reasonalbly priced Summilux 35mm pre ASPH, I noticed there is NO shortage of USED (like new) M11 cameras. This says something...

Edited January 6, 2023 by Cobram

[elmars]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

and it does require beta testing to find all the serious things that can go wrong when there are race conditions.

There have been beta tests like this, at Leica itself and with some forum members. You and I were involved. As far as I remember, there were no more freezes when the camera came out. 

[charlesphoto99]

18 hours ago, lct said:

Took only 4 years for the M240 to fix all its bugs so all hope is not lost . 

I’m sure the M12 will be the 10-R of the new range. If one doesn’t have a need other than GAS, I would work with what one has and wait for the next iteration. 

[lct]

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53 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I’m sure the M12 will be the 10-R of the new range

You mean an old generation camera? Little chance i suspect. With IBIS and a BSI sensor, possibly a global shutter, the M12 will be a modern M hopefully. I have no info about Leica projects though.

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I’m sure the M12 will be the 10-R of the new range. If one doesn’t have a need other than GAS, I would work with what one has and wait for the next iteration. 

M12 will be a new camera, and will have all the complexity of a new generation.

maybe more a M11 -p-d-f-g...s since by then it will be very mature.

[LocalHero1953]

Don't buy the M12. The LIDAR replacement for the rangefinder burns your model's retina (correctly, the one nearest the camera), the quantum entanglement link to the FOTOS app is inherently uncertain, and Leica's free beta brain implants for choosing a focus point have had an unhappy effect on new users (Leica has bought a cerebellum transplant start-up to deal with the latter problem).

Leica promises all the problems will be solved with a new firmware upgrade, but meanwhile keep the M12 away from anyone who still wants to have children.

[charlesphoto99]

3 hours ago, lct said:

You mean an old generation camera? Little chance i suspect. With IBIS and a BSI sensor, possibly a global shutter, the M12 will be a modern M hopefully. I have no info about Leica projects though.

Not what I meant - don't take things so literally. I meant the M12 will be the M11 with the kinks worked out and some slight improvements - such as the M10>M10-R. 

[lct]

9 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Not what I meant - don't take things so literally. I meant the M12 will be the M11 with the kinks worked out and some slight improvements - such as the M10>M10-R. 

Not sure if IBIS or a global shutter can be considered "slight improvements", but maybe I'm taking "slight" too literally again... I have no idea what Leica is planning to implement in the M12 anyway.

[Kiwimac]

I was wondering yesterday what they’ll add to the 11-P apart from top plate engraving and no dot. 

[Kiwimac]

50 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Don't buy the M12. The LIDAR replacement for the rangefinder burns your model's retina (correctly, the one nearest the camera), the quantum entanglement link to the FOTOS app is inherently uncertain, and Leica's free beta brain implants for choosing a focus point have had an unhappy effect on new users (Leica has bought a cerebellum transplant start-up to deal with the latter problem).

Leica promises all the problems will be solved with a new firmware upgrade, but meanwhile keep the M12 away from anyone who still wants to have children.

You joke about the brain implants choosing focus points however the new Canon R3 apparently focuses where you’re looking, so it’s getting close! 😱

[charlesphoto99]

19 minutes ago, lct said:

Not sure if IBIS or a global shutter can be considered "slight improvements", but maybe I'm taking "slight" too literally again... I have no idea what Leica is planning to implement in the M12 anyway.

Who knows. I guess 'no longer freezes' wouldn't be the the best marketing material for an improvement...

[lct]

5 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Who knows. I guess 'no longer freezes' wouldn't be the the best marketing material for an improvement...

The M12 should be compatible with CFexpress cards among what you call "slight" improvements so freezes are to be expected at some stage i suspect but i'm no techie at all.

[SrMi]

34 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

You joke about the brain implants choosing focus points however the new Canon R3 apparently focuses where you’re looking, so it’s getting close! 😱

My Canon Elan IIe was doing that in 1996.

[Adam Bonn]

26 minutes ago, kingmtii said:

ok?  Rolex went from radium>tritium>superluminova>chromalight. aluminum bezel insert > ceramic. hollow endlinks>solid, stamped clasps>milled. tension based bi-directional bezel assembly to uni-120 clicks. plexi crystal > sapphire. removed lug holes and case bevels, changed to supercase. changed the movement from 1030>1570>3135 to 3235. and they still call it a submariner.

I only wear my rolex because i appreciate the details and craftsmanship. same reason I got my m11. They're in the same category as far as im concerned. 

 

 

 

I reckon 100% of Leica Ms have at some point in their lives taken a photo. 

What percentage of Submariners do you think have ever been taken diving?

That math alone tells you all you need to know about the difference between Leica and Rolex….

EVERYONE buys a Leica to make photos. VERY FEW people buy a Rolex to go diving with it.

Personally I find more craftsmanship in the gears etc of a wristwatch than I do in PCBs and microchips.

The watch is a luxury item. Like a luxury bag it does the same job as an ordinary version of a watch/bag but it’s status and materials means it commands a high price.

If you’ve ever put groceries into a plastic supermarket bag then you already learnt how to use a Gucci bag, if you’ve ever worn a $5 watch you know how to wear a rolex.

The Leica is a rangefinding tool. You can’t just pick it up and use it without rangefinder experience, owning the canikonfujony isn’t the same as a rangefinder, you need to learn how to use it. 

It’s not an exotic version of an everyday item, it’s a specialised instrument that’s only really used to do what it should be used for = taking pictures.

Luxury dive watches not so much.

 

 

[jdlaing]

39 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

I reckon 100% of Leica Ms have at some point in their lives taken a photo. 

What percentage of Submariners do you think have ever been taken diving?

100%

That math alone tells you all you need to know about the difference between Leica and Rolex….

EVERYONE buys a Leica to make photos. VERY FEW people buy a Rolex to go diving with it.

Personally I find more craftsmanship in the gears etc of a wristwatch than I do in PCBs and microchips.

The watch is a luxury item. Like a luxury bag it does the same job as an ordinary version of a watch/bag but it’s status and materials means it commands a high price.

If you’ve ever put groceries into a plastic supermarket bag then you already learnt how to use a Gucci bag, if you’ve ever worn a $5 watch you know how to wear a rolex.

The Leica is a rangefinding tool. You can’t just pick it up and use it without rangefinder experience, owning the canikonfujony isn’t the same as a rangefinder, you need to learn how to use it. 

I don’t think it is a range finding tool as it does not report accurate distance to you. Leica makes range finding tools. Leica Geosystems. 

It’s not an exotic version of an everyday item, it’s a specialised instrument that’s only really used to do what it should be used for = taking pictures.

Luxury dive watches not so much.

 

 

 

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[Kiwimac]

To be fair, there aren’t many cameras you can pick up and use these days with no experience. 
 

I’d say a rangefinder is the easiest to do it with but that might be because I grew up in an era when AF simply didn’t exist. 
 

i got my GFX 100 out to take a picture of the moon the other evening. I wanted it in spot metering since the moon was the only thing that needed to be correct in the exposure. 
 

I couldn’t work out how to change the metering mode and it took me 15 minutes including referring to the internet to do so. Apparently if face/eye detection is set to on, you must turn that off before the metering (or photogrammetry as FF annoyingly calls it) line in the menu is made active. 
 

I could have photographed the moon 50 times with a Leica M in that 15 minutes. At least. 

[Adam Bonn]

My point stands though  chaps.

A luxury item is an ordinary item given cachet by decoration, materials, cachet. 

A camera is a tool which requires more training to use than it does to wear a watch or pick up a bag