Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[jakontil]

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1 hour ago, Huss said:

I just sold my Fuji Xpro3.  Hardly ever use it, plus it looks like there is a class action lawsuit pending for the defective rear monitor/screen.  So wanted to avoid that nonsense - currently Fuji is charging $500 to repair them even though it is a design flaw.

Point being? Well, it's not just Leica.  Do I feel better about it? No, not really.

They just keep failing, sold mine a couple of years ago when problem start arising 

here, dont deal with warranty lol, get rid altogether 

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[madNbad]

17 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

They definitely have but don’t seem to anymore…

 

What has changed other than their prices increasing?

So many people on these forums have direct experience dealing with this

Mine was 3 brand new MPs…what other brand would fail 3 times out of the box brand new?

The long time users can tell you about the M4-2 kerfuffle. Switching from the brass to steel gears, trying to get an entire production line up and running with a somewhat similar but totally new camera that would jam at the most unexpected times. Leica not only survived it but it became the basis of every film camera built since the 1970s. Currently there’s a hiccup in the production line. They’ll find it and fix it, hopefully leading to a twenty year run of the new M6.

[Matlock]

16 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

When did the MP come out? 2003?

My 3 brand new ones were from 2022 so they certainly didn’t find and fix that. 

There’s no excuse for a hand checked, prestige new in box camera scratching film. 

Something is seriously wrong with their QC lately

 

 

 

What exactly were the problems with your new MPs?

[Matlock]

7 hours ago, lmans said:

On most forums ( pick one, pick any), many people put forth negative views. I just happen to think positive… be positive… I am positive. So when looking at Leica or any established high end company, they get to that point for a reason. Sure…. Product issues will occur…. That is natural as nothing is 100%, but in general… Leica has and does put forth quality. Sorry for not being negative:)

Leica Fan boy….Ricoh GR fan boy… OM-1 fan boy…

You realise that you will probably be struck off this forum for daring to suggest that Leica are not a rubbish company, as most of the recent posters seem to think 🙂 

 

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, madNbad said:

The long time users can tell you about the M4-2 kerfuffle.

The long time users, and the long time internet forum users will tell you that most people have a profound ignorance of statistics. They see one black swan, and conclude that all swans are black. They see a small number of Leica camera faults and conclude that Leica's QA has declined. There is no allowance made for: faults that are far more likely to be reported than 'non-faults'; the visibility of faults in the age of the internet compared to even 10 years ago; our forgetfulness about faults that have accompanied just about any new model. And here we have a 6 page thread about one user's camera that has a fault.

Those with a camera with a fault have my sympathy, especially when it is a fault that should have been caught before it left the factory. Those that conclude that Leica's QA is worse than it used to be are just ignorant: they have no means of knowing if it is better or worse. Those that expect all Leica cameras to be perfect are living on a different planet - nothing is perfect and all humans make mistakes.

Edited December 28, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[wattsy]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Those that conclude that Leica's QA is worse than it used to be are just ignorant: they have no means of knowing if it is better or worse. 

Yes, I doubt that anyone on the forum who isn't a Leica employee (I assume there must be one or two) will know the returns/repairs statistics but we all have our own experiences and, whilst that is anecdotal, it can provide a strong impression. I have no idea whether there has been a genuine decline in QA but what I do know is that every Leica camera body I have bought new since 2011, bar one, has returned to Wetzlar for repair or adjustment. Off the top of my head that is 1 x M9P, 1 x Monochrom, 1 x MP, 2 x M-A and 1 x M240. Two of the problems were endemic and not QA related – a cracked sensor and a corroded sensor – but nonetheless those problems necessitated a return to the factory. The only camera that has been problem free is my M240. All of the problems were dealt with by Leica in a courteous and helpful manner within varying timescales (ranging from excellent to rather disappointing). I don't recall any of the Leica cameras I bought prior to 2011 requiring factory service or repair.

It is important not to extrapolate from our own personal experiences and make unnecessary claims about the reliability of Leica products but IMO this works both ways. There are a small number of regulars in the forum who, having presumably not had any problems with Leica gear, have taken it upon themselves to question the truthfulness of many of the complaints or questions raised in the forum. I find this regrettable.

 

[Matlock]

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10 minutes ago, wattsy said:

Yes, I doubt that anyone on the forum who isn't a Leica employee (I assume there must be one or two) will know the returns/repairs statistics but we all have our own experiences and, whilst that is anecdotal, it can provide a strong impression. I have no idea whether there has been a genuine decline in QA but what I do know is that every Leica camera body I have bought new since 2011, bar one, has returned to Wetzlar for repair or adjustment. Off the top of my head that is 1 x M9P, 1 x Monochrom, 1 x MP, 2 x M-A and 1 x M240. Two of the problems were endemic and not QA related – a cracked sensor and a corroded sensor – but nonetheless those problems necessitated a return to the factory. The only camera that has been problem free is my M240. All of the problems were dealt with by Leica in a courteous and helpful manner within varying timescales (ranging from excellent to rather disappointing). I don't recall any of the Leica cameras I bought prior to 2011 requiring factory service or repair.

It is important not to extrapolate from our own personal experiences and make unnecessary claims about the reliability of Leica products but IMO this works both ways. There are a small number of regulars in the forum who, having presumably not had any problems with Leica gear, have taken it upon themselves to question the truthfulness of many of the complaints or questions raised in the forum. I find this regrettable.

 

Well luckily, like many others, I can state that none of my Leica camera bodies that I have purchased new since 2012 have been returned. That includes an MP, M-A, and two M10s (a D and R). Also I know of no others who have experienced problems (aside from on this forum). As to your point about the "small number of regulars etc" I suggest you read again what Paul has posted: "Those that conclude that Leica's QA is worse than it used to be are just ignorant: they have no means of knowing if it is better or worse. Those that expect all Leica cameras to be perfect are living on a different planet - nothing is perfect and all humans make mistakes." I certainly question the truthfulness of some, but not all, of the complainants.

[LocalHero1953]

I have had a M9, M240, CL, TL2 (twice, one s/h), SL, SL2, SL2-S. The only one that had a problem was the M240, which was fixed by the various firmware upgrades. It was never a major issue that stopped me using it. Another sample of 1.

We can also distinguish between true QA issues (it should never have left the factor after checking), such as film scratching (MP, M6), hidden manufacturing defects (M10, Q2 strap lugs), and design flaws (perhaps the M240, M9 sensor, Apo-Summicron-M 50mm flaring, M6 zinc blisters). Where the latest Summilux-M 35mm aperture blade failure falls is not clear at the moment. This list is from my recollection: those who bought new Leicas going back earlier can, I'm sure, add their own experiences.

Edited December 28, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[jakontil]

43 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have had a M9, M240, CL, TL2 (twice, one s/h), SL, SL2, SL2-S. The only one that had a problem was the M240, which was fixed by the various firmware upgrades. It was never a major issue that stopped me using it. Another sample of 1.

We can also distinguish between true QA issues (it should never have left the factor after checking), such as film scratching (MP, M6), hidden manufacturing defects (M10, Q2 strap lugs), and design flaws (perhaps the M240, M9 sensor, Apo-Summicron-M 50mm flaring, M6 zinc blisters). Where the latest Summilux-M 35mm aperture blade failure falls is not clear at the moment. This list is from my recollection: those who bought new Leicas going back earlier can, I'm sure, add their own experiences.

The early batch m10 suffered from sticky iso dial which many seem to forget but it was painful

[jonnyboy]

what a disgrace from Leica! 

Imagine if you had some valuable shots on those rolls of film and it would be all scratched? Really unacceptable if you ask me...

[charlesphoto99]

Well, how about Leica service then, if not the brand new cameras? Like the time NJ took eight weeks to six bit code my 28mm summicron because they were out of bayonets. And then sent it back to me coded as a 24mm Elmarit. Which took another six weeks to correct. Don't get me wrong, it's NOT a 'rubbish' company, but it is one that needs to have a strong look inwards at itself. For example, the back to the end of the line no matter what policy, even if one bought the camera hours before. I know that's partly a German cultural thing (your spot is your spot, no special treatment), but it doesn't fly when talking about $10k camera bodies and lenses. 

[lmans]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The long time users, and the long time internet forum users will tell you that most people have a profound ignorance of statistics. They see one black swan, and conclude that all swans are black. They see a small number of Leica camera faults and conclude that Leica's QA has declined. There is no allowance made for: faults that are far more likely to be reported than 'non-faults'; the visibility of faults in the age of the internet compared to even 10 years ago; our forgetfulness about faults that have accompanied just about any new model. And here we have a 6 page thread about one user's camera that has a fault.

Those with a camera with a fault have my sympathy, especially when it is a fault that should have been caught before it left the factory. Those that conclude that Leica's QA is worse than it used to be are just ignorant: they have no means of knowing if it is better or worse. Those that expect all Leica cameras to be perfect are living on a different planet - nothing is perfect and all humans make mistakes.

Very well stated…. 
 

I also have sympathy for those few who have had issues… none of us want that. But I am just ‘guessing’… mind you… that those are just a ‘few’. 
 

but well said….

[Steve Ricoh]

Maybe it’s safer to buy second hand from a forum member who can vouch for the condition of the camera. I have a near pristine M6 classic that doesn’t scratch film. 😊

[Matlock]

11 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

Maybe it’s safer to buy second hand from a forum member who can vouch for the condition of the camera. I have a near pristine M6 classic that doesn’t scratch film. 😊

Maybe a little over cautious when, so far, only one report of an M6 scratching film.

[BradS]

It is not quite so simple as "only one".  It is really, "only one that we know of so far". The defect probability may be, 1 in 1000 or 1 in 5000, or...???. We do not know but if it really is "only one so far", which is highly dubious,  p=0.0002 (1 in 5000) is a pretty good estimate of the probability at present. (ask yourself if you'd like to take those odds of having your hard earned $5500 tied up for a few months).

More important however is that fact that a film camera that scratches film is utterly useless, a complete failure.  The probability of occurrence may or may not be vanishing small but even if it is "small",  the severity of the defect is catastrophic. This represents an unacceptably high risk.

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by BradS

[Huss]

2 hours ago, Matlock said:

Maybe a little over cautious when, so far, only one report of an M6 scratching film.

I have heard from two others, who wish to remain silent, that their's scratch film too.  And the vast majority of users are not on this site.

[edstock]

Has anyone contacted Leica Germany? That's where it starts and ends. I wonder how Leica's bean counters are involved. They nixed production of the CL digital, itself a magnificent camera. Haven't read of any complaints by owners. A new digital M11 is $9,000.-11,000, I think. A new film  M-A, MP or new M6 all roughly $5,500. So think profit margins and where do you put forth the most effort. 

Leica's owned: M2, M4-P, M6 original, and M7 with a .58 VF. None scratches the film.

[Mikep996]

I had decided not to buy a new M6 because my 1984 M6 works perfectly.  But now I'm tempted to buy a new one just to see if it scratches film!!  😉

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[LocalHero1953]

I'm looking forward to caressing and fondling the pressure plate of my new MP when it arrives, looking for blemishes. (Not many people have made such a statement in history). 

[pgk]

14 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I'm looking forward to caressing and fondling the pressure plate of my new MP when it arrives, looking for blemishes.

This is, of course, the real difference between film and digital ......