Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[jonnyboy]

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what a disgrace from Leica! 

Imagine if you had some valuable shots on those rolls of film and it would be all scratched? Really unacceptable if you ask me...

[charlesphoto99]

Well, how about Leica service then, if not the brand new cameras? Like the time NJ took eight weeks to six bit code my 28mm summicron because they were out of bayonets. And then sent it back to me coded as a 24mm Elmarit. Which took another six weeks to correct. Don't get me wrong, it's NOT a 'rubbish' company, but it is one that needs to have a strong look inwards at itself. For example, the back to the end of the line no matter what policy, even if one bought the camera hours before. I know that's partly a German cultural thing (your spot is your spot, no special treatment), but it doesn't fly when talking about $10k camera bodies and lenses. 

[lmans]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The long time users, and the long time internet forum users will tell you that most people have a profound ignorance of statistics. They see one black swan, and conclude that all swans are black. They see a small number of Leica camera faults and conclude that Leica's QA has declined. There is no allowance made for: faults that are far more likely to be reported than 'non-faults'; the visibility of faults in the age of the internet compared to even 10 years ago; our forgetfulness about faults that have accompanied just about any new model. And here we have a 6 page thread about one user's camera that has a fault.

Those with a camera with a fault have my sympathy, especially when it is a fault that should have been caught before it left the factory. Those that conclude that Leica's QA is worse than it used to be are just ignorant: they have no means of knowing if it is better or worse. Those that expect all Leica cameras to be perfect are living on a different planet - nothing is perfect and all humans make mistakes.

Very well stated…. 
 

I also have sympathy for those few who have had issues… none of us want that. But I am just ‘guessing’… mind you… that those are just a ‘few’. 
 

but well said….

[Steve Ricoh]

Maybe it’s safer to buy second hand from a forum member who can vouch for the condition of the camera. I have a near pristine M6 classic that doesn’t scratch film. 😊

[Matlock]

11 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

Maybe it’s safer to buy second hand from a forum member who can vouch for the condition of the camera. I have a near pristine M6 classic that doesn’t scratch film. 😊

Maybe a little over cautious when, so far, only one report of an M6 scratching film.

[BradS]

It is not quite so simple as "only one".  It is really, "only one that we know of so far". The defect probability may be, 1 in 1000 or 1 in 5000, or...???. We do not know but if it really is "only one so far", which is highly dubious,  p=0.0002 (1 in 5000) is a pretty good estimate of the probability at present. (ask yourself if you'd like to take those odds of having your hard earned $5500 tied up for a few months).

More important however is that fact that a film camera that scratches film is utterly useless, a complete failure.  The probability of occurrence may or may not be vanishing small but even if it is "small",  the severity of the defect is catastrophic. This represents an unacceptably high risk.

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by BradS

[Huss]

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2 hours ago, Matlock said:

Maybe a little over cautious when, so far, only one report of an M6 scratching film.

I have heard from two others, who wish to remain silent, that their's scratch film too.  And the vast majority of users are not on this site.

[edstock]

Has anyone contacted Leica Germany? That's where it starts and ends. I wonder how Leica's bean counters are involved. They nixed production of the CL digital, itself a magnificent camera. Haven't read of any complaints by owners. A new digital M11 is $9,000.-11,000, I think. A new film  M-A, MP or new M6 all roughly $5,500. So think profit margins and where do you put forth the most effort. 

Leica's owned: M2, M4-P, M6 original, and M7 with a .58 VF. None scratches the film.

[Mikep996]

I had decided not to buy a new M6 because my 1984 M6 works perfectly.  But now I'm tempted to buy a new one just to see if it scratches film!!  😉

[LocalHero1953]

I'm looking forward to caressing and fondling the pressure plate of my new MP when it arrives, looking for blemishes. (Not many people have made such a statement in history). 

[pgk]

14 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I'm looking forward to caressing and fondling the pressure plate of my new MP when it arrives, looking for blemishes.

This is, of course, the real difference between film and digital ......

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have had a M9, M240, CL, TL2 (twice, one s/h), SL, SL2, SL2-S. The only one that had a problem was the M240, which was fixed by the various firmware upgrades. It was never a major issue that stopped me using it. Another sample of 1.

We can also distinguish between true QA issues (it should never have left the factor after checking), such as film scratching (MP, M6), hidden manufacturing defects (M10, Q2 strap lugs), and design flaws (perhaps the M240, M9 sensor, Apo-Summicron-M 50mm flaring, M6 zinc blisters). Where the latest Summilux-M 35mm aperture blade failure falls is not clear at the moment. This list is from my recollection: those who bought new Leicas going back earlier can, I'm sure, add their own experiences.

For the sake of completeness, I should add the M10 ISO dial jamming issue mentioned by @jakontil (design flaw? manufacturing error? it's not known). And how could I forget the mother of all digital M failures? The M8 IR contamination issue, a design flaw that was never properly fixed - to solve it you had to fit a IR cut filter - or shoot in B&W.

Sorry, all you guys telling us Leica's quality has dropped - history is against you.

[lmans]

The few who have issues just happen to be vocal…. Just happen to have a forum that takes the topic and extends it …. A mountain out of a molehill. hey…. Buy Fuji, buy canon, buy Nikon. No one is stopping you from cashing in your Leica chips and going for Fuji gold. Ooo la la. 
 

[Steve Ricoh]

Just to chip in here… my M240 shutter failed after <500 operations and I was without the camera for ~10 weeks whilst it went on ‘holiday’. I actually receive a repair note informing me that the shutter had been replaced, but less than two months later the shutter failed again. I thought I’m not going to be deprived for another 10 weeks, and in any case I had very little confidence in the camera, so I demanded a replacement from the dealer under the sale of goods act.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Steve Ricoh

[madNbad]

9 hours ago, jonnyboy said:

what a disgrace from Leica! 

Imagine if you had some valuable shots on those rolls of film and it would be all scratched? Really unacceptable if you ask me...

Huss might have had a few frames of ET using his phone for a TickTock video of Elvis and Sasquatch dancing on the Santa Monica Pier. 

[Huss]

43 minutes ago, madNbad said:

Huss might have had a few frames of ET using his phone for a TickTock video of Elvis and Sasquatch dancing on the Santa Monica Pier. 

I coulda been rich.  Thanks a lot Leica QA inspector Friedrich Filmbescratchin.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Huss

[BradS]

2 hours ago, lmans said:

 …. A mountain out of a molehill. 
 

easy for you to say, you didn’t plop down $5500 for a brand new Leica that scratches film. Guessing that if you had you probably wouldn’t be so smug about it. 

[lmans]

17 minutes ago, BradS said:

easy for you to say, you didn’t plop down $5500 for a brand new Leica that scratches film. Guessing that if you had you probably wouldn’t be so smug about it. 

I said. …. My sympathies are with you, so accept that as true sympathy.
 

BUT my overall concern is not with the lone rangers that have issues but with the masses who might succumb and believe in the issues of a ‘few’ , that  ‘that’ equates to the issues of the ‘many’…. Which it doesn’t.

When a small vocal minority take over ( think trumpsters in America), it appears by their strong vocal voice, as encouraged by forums etc…. That their minority representative is the majority. So yes…, you have a legitimate concern over your particular camera, but it is far from the norm. 
 

I think we need a Leica Complaint sub-forum…. That would help in showcasing the few that have issues but doesn’t imply majority. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by lmans

[Huss]

2 hours ago, lmans said:

I said. …. My sympathies are with you, so accept that as true sympathy.
 

BUT my overall concern is not with the lone rangers that have issues but with the masses who might succumb and believe in the issues of a ‘few’ , that  ‘that’ equates to the issues of the ‘many’…. Which it doesn’t.

When a small vocal minority take over ( think trumpsters in America), it appears by their strong vocal voice, as encouraged by forums etc…. That their minority representative is the majority. So yes…, you have a legitimate concern over your particular camera, but it is far from the norm. 
 

I think we need a Leica Complaint sub-forum…. That would help in showcasing the few that have issues but doesn’t imply majority. 

How do you know the 2022 M6 film scratchers are in the minority?  Who here has one?  I know of three.  And out of three all three scratch the film.

Where are your stats, or are you talking about a silent majority that you do not know exists, but would like to think does?

And flushing this out - what would you consider an acceptable failure rate?  Given that these cameras have been "meticulously inspected by professionals at multiple stages during production"?

Edited December 29, 2022 by Huss

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[grahamc]

11 hours ago, Huss said:

And the vast majority of users are not on this site.

Imagine that , rolling through life blissfully unaware of focus shift. Sigh 😔 😂