'Starter' lenses from Leica?

[adan]

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Over on the old Digital Forum someone recently asked about which wideangle to choose as a "35mm" substitute for the the Digital-M...

 

....AND mentioned in passing his dealer had described a new, compact (29mm deep) Leica 28mm f/2.8 in the works for $US 1300.

 

Rumor, obviously, but it did start me thinking...

 

Would, or does, it make any sense for Leica to introduce a relatively low-cost, limited line of lenses? Say, a 28 such as the one mentioned, the 50 f/2.8 already in existence, and perhaps a non-makro mounting of the 90 f/4?

 

Excellent optics, smaller max. apertures, likely simplified and less costly construction (a la Ikon/Cosina).

 

Simply as a way of reducing the 'sticker shock' for someone wanting to get started with Leica M cameras (film or digital) while keeping them in the Leica fold?

 

They might be called "Elmarons", as a tip of the hat to the Summaron line. Not unlike the "C" lenses for the CL of the 70's, or the Summaron 35 f/2.8 of the 50's/60's.

 

An M2 plus Summaron was the cheap back-door into the Leica system in 1960.

[ed_oneal]

It would seem to me that they way to mitigate "sticker shock" would be to buy one or two of the older lenses. Lots of them available and they are particularly good for B&W. The older lenses could always be sold later when you're ready to move up to a more modern lens.

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[adan]

Sure, Ed. In fact I have 7 pre-1990 lenses I'm hoping to use on the digi-M, or at least try before considering perhaps some new(er) lenses.

 

But Leica gets no income from people buying used...

[lct]

...his dealer had described a new, compact (29mm deep) Leica 28mm f/2.8 in the works for $US 1300...

A small 28mm like the M-Rokkor 28/2.8 would be great for sure.

[rosuna]

I agree with LCT.

[ho_co]

Adan--

 

Good thought.

 

If that happens, it'll be a major change. As you know, Leica has never had to offer less expensive lenses before, because the used market always offered a less-expensive way into the system.

 

But now there are very inexpensive but decent performers under the Voigtländer name, and very good lenses under the Zeiss brand for less than Leica's similar items.

 

Maybe our old girl is going to have to go the way of some of the other manufacturers, just to keep us on our toes!

 

I like the idea.

 

--HC

[lct]

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...Leica has never had to offer less expensive lenses before..

Remember the lenses for Leica CL: Summicron-C 40/2 and Elmar-C 90/4.

[marknorton]

You can already buy an M7/MP with a 50mm Summicron at a substantial discount as a starter set and I expect there will be something similar for the M8, maybe a 35mm or 28mm lens. It will need to show off the M8 to best advantage, even if at limited aperture, and so tempt the user to buying more lenses.

 

The problem is of course that they don't want to hurt sales of the more expensive lenses by making any new lenses too attractive but nor do they want to send people running to CV and Zeiss. The lens coding is doubtless one element of the strategy providing there is clear benefit to be had. If the collective response it ho-hum to the benefits it provides, Leica will have shot themselves in the foot.

[cbretteville]

The problem is of course that they don't want to hurt sales of the more expensive lenses by making any new lenses too attractive but nor do they want to send people running to CV and Zeiss.

Well the 50/2.8 is an example of this philosophy. I recently aquired one and must say I'm impressed with what Leica's engineers have been able to wring out of a four element design. It allows me to take along a 50mm when I leave the 'cron at home due to weight and bulk. My current 28mm is the generation III Elmarit (E49), it dosen't get all that much use partly because of the size.

 

As for the price, well again the 50/2.8 is still priced at a level where us mere mortals can afford it without mortgaging the children. The four 50mm lenses for the Ms on offer shows that Leica isn't opposed to pricing lenses in different segments. The €1000 price hike from the 35'cron to the 'lux is telling the same story. Finally there is room for a 28 Elmarit in the line after they retired version IV.

 

Cheers,

- Carl

[marknorton]

Yes, I agree the 50s show a way forward. If the sole compromise is really maximum lens speed, that might be an acceptable cost/performance trade-off though with the 28mm Summicron costing €2700, they will be doing well to get to $1300 for the loss of just one f-stop.

 

And of course, fastest is not always best. A recent LFI comparative review of 50's politely put the Noctilux behind the new Summilux, clearly it's a lens which mainly exists for the magic f1. Interestingly, the same review says the third lens element of the Summilux costs more than the rest put together - and it's not even the asphere surface! Just as well it's not accessible to my cleaning skills then, LOL.

[wattsy]

I'm not entirely sure about the rationale for Leica to start offering 'starter/more affordable' lenses. In a way, this niche is catered for by Cosina in its Voigtlander and Zeiss incarnations. Leica will never be able to compete with these lines unless it starts manufacturing M lenses outside Germany/EU and I'm not sure there is any great point in doing so. Leica has never felt the need to market a more affordable range - the de facto 'standard' lens for a Leica M film body is the 35mm/F2 and that now costs in excess of a grand (in any currency I can think of). I'm not sure that the digital M really changes anything. Maybe Leica needs to revise the pricing on the 28mm/F2 or consider discounting the 35mm/F2 when bought with a digital M (as they do with the 50/F2 and the M7) but I doubt it will have much impact on sales of the digital body itself. If the body is priced at anything like the suggested prices being bandied around the internet forums, Leica will have no difficulty selling all that they can make.

[ed_oneal]

Sure, Ed. In fact I have 7 pre-1990 lenses I'm hoping to use on the digi-M, or at least try before considering perhaps some new(er) lenses.

But Leica gets no income from people buying used...

 

 

 

True, but Leica knew that they wouldn't sell a new lens with every camera when they decided to make the M8 compatible with the older lenses. They are continuing their practice of making the old compatible with the new as they did when they introduced the M with adapters for screw mount lenses. If I had no lenses compatible with the M8 and couldn't afford a new top-of-the-line lens, I would opt for an older (much cheaper) lens until I could afford one of the newer ones. I don't think I'd go for a new "starter" lens. The beauty of the M8 concept is that we can use our older lenses until we really need, and can afford, a new one. For my purposes, I think the my existing lenses will suffice.

[adan]

RE: History of less expensive Leica lenses - how soon we forget!

 

In the early 60s Leica offered 50 f/2.8 (similar to the current one), 35 f/2.8, and 90 f/4 lenses in addition to their f/2 and f/1.4 top-end 'crons and 'luxes. They were compact (thanks to the slower apertures) as well as less pricey. Most were hold-over designs from the screwmount era, although the 90 f/4 Elmar was redesigned at least once even after the screwmount line was out of production.

 

There were plenty of Canon and Nikkor lenses also available, as well as used Leica lenses. But Leica still obviously though providing their own less expensive, new-warrantied 'eingang' to the M system was a good idea.

 

Ed: No, I wouldn't get a starter lens myself either - as I said I have 7 rarin' to go. But I hope Leica is targeting an audience bigger than existing M users.

 

Anyway - it is just speculation based on someone's post that a dealer told them such a 28 was in the works - obviously direct from rumor-central. Guess it's one of those things we'll find answered (or not) in Koln Sept 26.

[robert_parker]

I'm a bit worried about calling the new lenses 'Elmarons' though....I've seen too many episodes of Star Trek...

[cbretteville]

I'm a bit worried about calling the new lenses 'Elmarons' though....I've seen too many episodes of Star Trek...

Seems the name is used by Leica for projection lenses:

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&Q=&is=REG&O=productlist&sku=182778

 

- C

[lct]

Yes, i may be wrong but as far as i remember 'Elmaron' has always been used for projection lenses.

[grober]

Yup, a 28mm Summicron is sure looking more and more attractive...

 

This year, Leica will certainly have it's hands full getting the M8 and rumored new "M" wide angle successfully introduced in the market. I don't see them introducing an "entry level priced" line of lenses in the near future but would love it if they did so in the longer term. It would add new classes of younger buyers to the gene pool which they desperately need.

 

There's a lot riding on this particular Photokina for Leica Camera. They must make a good return on the M8 gamble to survive as a viable company.

 

-g

[Bob Ross]

RE: History of less expensive Leica lenses - how soon we forget!

 

In the early 60s Leica offered 50 f/2.8 (similar to the current one), 35 f/2.8, and 90 f/4 lenses in addition to their f/2 and f/1.4 top-end 'crons and 'luxes. They were compact (thanks to the slower apertures) as well as less pricey. Most were hold-over designs from the screwmount era, although the 90 f/4 Elmar was redesigned at least once even after the screwmount line was out of production.

 

Andy, I don't think "starter" is a good term as it doesn't speak of what could be gained. Now, if it were "compact" and they actually were, then they would have something for starters, yes, but also something for everyone else, too. I think it is a good idea and collapsables for compactness even better.

Bob

[lct]

...Now, if it were "compact" and they actually were, then they would have something for starters, yes, but also something for everyone else, too....

Agreed, typical Leica philosophy.

Something like the Rokkor 28/2.8 plus a bit more sharpness and a bit less vignetting, lighter and smaller than the Summicron even with the 35/1.4asph hood on the latter.

 

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Hallo,

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