IkarusJohn Posted June 28, 2022 Author Share #161 Posted June 28, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 44 minutes ago, Kwesi said: Sounds like you are describing the M10-D and not the other M10 variants. not being pedantic, just trying to follow along Sorry, yes that's right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here Core of the digital M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jakontil Posted June 28, 2022 Share #162 Posted June 28, 2022 When i tried the electronic shutter, I thought my M11 was broken it was so silent even i didn’t know i triggered the shutter 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted June 28, 2022 Share #163 Posted June 28, 2022 On 6/23/2022 at 7:30 PM, IkarusJohn said: Leica has started a survey for M11 owners. I don’t expect them to ask the rest of us what we might want in future digital M cameras. So, I thought I might pose the question here. I seem to recall that only Andreas can set up a poll; besides, what options should be put on such a poll? So, here’s my list. I have tried to limit myself to what is Das Wesentliche, rather than what I’d like: Coupled optical rangefinder (the M10 version is good) EVF option (either external or an EVF variant) The best sensor for 35mm format available in terms of dynamic range, M lens compatibility, colour response and ISO DNG output only Traditional shutter, with live view option Internal meter, with centre-weighting off the shutter and other options with live view Aperture priority Direct physical controls as far as possible Stable WiFi Same size as the M10/11 I’m not bothered by extended ISO range or MP count - not pro, not opposed as they are not goals in themselves. Similarly, I don’t care one way or the other about IBIS. What I’d like is an LCD-less version, with the M11 base, and a slight change to the >.< in the viewfinder to show >>. or >>>. so I can measure exposure control for each exposure, rather than the single EV compensation I currently use. What I don’t want is anything that I normally do in LightRoom - cropping, changing resolution, JPegs - and I don’t want an M camera without a mechanical shutter. For me, the M camera should give direct control over the essentials for photography, giving a raw file which I then process how I want to. I don’t suggest these are the only options, but I would really only be interested in a totally stripped down version of the digital M - if I wanted the camera to make decisions for me, I’d have a Canon or a Nikon (nothing would induce me to return to Sony). A return to Hasselblad is a possibility … Getting back on topic, I agree with all your bullet points as being essential to the core of the digital M with the exception of: Traditional shutter, with live view option Internal meter, with centre-weighting off the shutter and other options with live view With its ultra fast scanning speed, Nikon has shown that the traditional shutter is no longer necessary and given that space is a premium in the M, I doubt we will see it in the next generation M assuming it has a capable processor. Obviously, the internal meter is not returning to the M, and it shouldn't. Not only can we now mount lenses that we couldn't in previous digital M's, choosing a metering pattern to much your subject with a dedicated function button is a real benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 29, 2022 Share #164 Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, hdmesa said: The M11 sacrifices the more elegant M10-P/R shutter sound (and that's all) but gains exposure accuracy and consistency. But the M11 shutter sound in LV is better than the M10 variants – and much less lag/blackout. Yes but M11 users cannot switch to classic mode anymore and the consequence of that is not only the sound but also the duration of the shutter actuation that is longer than that of any other digital M in classic mode if i'm not mistaken. Edited June 29, 2022 by lct Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted June 29, 2022 Share #165 Posted June 29, 2022 2 minutes ago, lct said: Yes but M11 users cannot switch to classic mode anymore and the consequence of that is not only the sound but also the length of the shutter actuation that is longer than that of any other digital M in classic mode if i'm not mistaken. In the next M we will probably have no sound at all, just the feel of the exposure button to complain about 😀 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 29, 2022 Share #166 Posted June 29, 2022 Just now, Kwesi said: In the next M we will probably have no sound at all, just the feel of the exposure button to complain about 😀 I guess so too but question is will it be worse than a stapler sound giving the feeling of a lack of responsiveness we had not with previous Ms in classic mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted June 29, 2022 Share #167 Posted June 29, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 46 minutes ago, lct said: I guess so too but question is will it be worse than a stapler sound giving the feeling of a lack of responsiveness we had not with previous Ms in classic mode. Try using it solely for a week with the M11 and see what you think. When I first tried it I was very frustrated because I wasn't sure if I had made the exposure. Now its very different. I still work in hybrid mode because the m11 readout isn't very fast so rolling shutter artifacts can occur. hasn't happened to me yet but you never know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted June 29, 2022 Share #168 Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, lct said: Yes but M11 users cannot switch to classic mode anymore and the consequence of that is not only the sound but also the duration of the shutter actuation that is longer than that of any other digital M in classic mode if i'm not mistaken. Yes that was exactly what I was saying. That is literally the only thing you lose, but you gain better metering in rangefinder mode, better LV shutter sound, and less LV lag and blackout. M10 cannot time travel forward to become an M11. M11 cannot time travel back to become an M10. Edited June 29, 2022 by hdmesa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted June 29, 2022 Share #169 Posted June 29, 2022 55 minutes ago, lct said: I guess so too but question is will it be worse than a stapler sound giving the feeling of a lack of responsiveness we had not with previous Ms in classic mode. Can’t predict how the electronic shutter on a stacked sensor M12 will “feel” versus a mechanical shutter M10/11, but it will certainly be more responsive and faster physically. Even now, the M11 electronic shutter is silent and immediate — it only lacks the sensor read speed necessary to overcome rolling shutter for scenes with too much movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted June 29, 2022 Share #170 Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, lct said: If silence is a must there is always... the M11 which has a silent mode too . I did not know there was a silent mode. Judging from the legions of complaints that have plagued the M11, I thought it had only two modes: "Louder than a firetruck siren" and "Louder than a wife who just caught her husband naked with her sister." Edited June 29, 2022 by Herr Barnack 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 29, 2022 Share #171 Posted June 29, 2022 2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said: Of course, but only with the shutter live. Similarly, all of the exposure options with the M11 are available on the M10, but with the EVF. The difference is conceptual - whether or not the shutter is open. But it is more than that. It's a step away from simply replacing film with a digital sensor (and what is needed for that) to something else. It's not quite an EVF based M camera, but that is a short step. More critically, what is gained? Multi-field metering is available on the M10 - you just need to attach that EVF. The M11 gains through the loss of the EVF (though there still is one), but loses the metering without the sensor being live. That matters to me, though not to most M11 owners ... You gain some improvements in image quality with some lenses, especially older ones and the very fast wide ones because there's no sensor housing blocking part of the light path. Leica discussed this when they released the M11. I have two lenses where I see a small but measurable improvement in IQ from the M10R to the M11. I can't of course prove it's because of this but I'll go along with Leica because I can't see another reason besides improvement in the microlenses. It's probably a bit of both. All I can say is my MATE doesn't flare as bad on the M11 as it does on the M10R. You gain consistency between live view and non live view metering. You get multifield metering with less shutter lag than the M10. I like the multifield metering. There's a noticable improvement in the metering that I don't need EC most of the time. All of these things mean that the camera gets out of the way just a bit more than it did before. I could frame this the other way. What do you lose with the new system? Metering options are the same. You can still choose CW metering. Shutter is quieter than the M8, 9, 10 and 240. Shutter recock is shorter than the M8 and M9. Shutter lag is lower than the M8, 9 and 240 and 1/100th different to the M10R. If you choose CW metering you'll get the same metering result as the M10 off the curtain. Sort of. Leica have tweaked this with every generation of M since the M6. The only real world difference is you don't like the longer sound of the new system because there's zero difference otherwise, except for a few lenses which are better on the M11. There's nothing wrong with not liking the sound of the new shutter. I wish people would just say that. That makes sense. The technical arguments don't stack up, especially if you use M10 cameras and M11 next to each other like I do. However people like what they like. The M10R is a fine camera. And I would argue that only the M-D is anything like a film M. Generally the experience is vastly different in imaging performance, ease of review, etc. 350 shots without changing film? (on the M10 vs film). 3 frames a second with no addons? A film M is a different beast entirely. As far from a digital M as an XPro3. Just in the opposite direction. Gordon 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 29, 2022 Share #172 Posted June 29, 2022 1 hour ago, lct said: Yes but M11 users cannot switch to classic mode anymore and the consequence of that is not only the sound but also the duration of the shutter actuation that is longer than that of any other digital M in classic mode if i'm not mistaken. M8 and M9? Louder and longer. Much louder and much longer. Difference between M-10P/R and M11 is measured at 1/100th of a second. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 29, 2022 Author Share #173 Posted June 29, 2022 I haven't heard the M11 shutter, and I'd have to say that shutter sound isn't really an issue for me, provided I know an image has been taken and when - I use the M9 Monochrom (not a very pleasing re-cock sound), M-A (very quiet), M10-D (nice enough), SL2 (also nice enough) and TL2 (no opinion really). Coming from SLRs with flappy mirrors, motor drives and Hasselblad 500 series cameras, I can't complain about the sound of any Leica shutter. Not sure I'd like no sound at all ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 29, 2022 Share #174 Posted June 29, 2022 52 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said: Difference between M-10P/R and M11 is measured at 1/100th of a second. You mean on M10's in classic mode? Just asking as i have no experience with those cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 29, 2022 Share #175 Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, hdmesa said: Yes that was exactly what I was saying. That is literally the only thing you lose, but you gain better metering in rangefinder mode, better LV shutter sound, and less LV lag and blackout. M10 cannot time travel forward to become an M11. M11 cannot time travel back to become an M10. Nicely said but i need responsiveness when i shoot. I need the feeling that the photo is taken at the very moment i press the shutter release. All my previous Ms gave me this feeling more or less, even my M8.2 did it in spite of its long re-cocking process. With the M11 i have not this feeling anymore and it feels somewhat frustrating even if i can live with that. The shutter noise is low fortunately. Edited June 29, 2022 by lct Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted June 29, 2022 Share #176 Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) vor 5 Stunden schrieb lct: Yes but M11 users cannot switch to classic mode anymore and the consequence of that is not only the sound but also the duration of the shutter actuation that is longer than that of any other digital M in classic mode if i'm not mistaken. I was excited when I read the feature list of the M11 - it was all (and more) I wanted. But after first hearing the complex shutter operation (not the sound) I thought this would be a M11 killer. But what shall I say: I got used to. I love the operation sound of the M10 shutter more but the sound of the M11 doesn´t bother me in any way. It is nearly the same shutter as in the M10 - mostly speeded up by software. New shutters are very expensive, the M11 would cost much more with a totally new constructed shutter. But Leica assured us that the M11 shutter has practically the same responsiveness as the M10 shutter in rangefinder mode. Edited June 29, 2022 by elmars 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted June 29, 2022 Share #177 Posted June 29, 2022 vor 10 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn: ... just need to attach that EVF. The M11 gains through the loss of the EVF (though there still is one), but loses the metering without the sensor being live. That matters to me, though not to most M11 owners ... When using the M10 in liveview (as you suggested for getting multifield metering) there is quite a bit longer shutter lag, which I did not really like. Therefore I used the classic metering with the M10(r). I lived with the classic metering for 30 years, but allways found it a bit less than ideal. Now with the M11 I dont really miss the classic exposure metering of the M10 and previous Ms. The sound of M11 is not as nice as M10P/R, but its fine for me. I feel I get a better exposure in critical light situations now without having to doublecheck the result. With previous figital Ms I did dial in more minus exposure compensation to avoid occasional blown highlights. So I ended up sometimes with slightly underexposed images which I had to slightly boost in post. Which is not an advantage for noise and DR. So M12 please with faster startup, same exp metering like M11, a little bit optimized shutter sound (compared to M11), and a fast readout electronic shutter as an option. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted June 29, 2022 Share #178 Posted June 29, 2022 I miss the DSLR or Hasselblad sound. the SL2 and the M11 are quite. in some cases to quite. My models want to hear the sound to get into there poses. the wait for the sound of the camera to change expression just a little. Now I feel the need to talk to them on every shot to motivate them since the camera is so quite... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted June 29, 2022 Share #179 Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, lct said: Nicely said but i need responsiveness when i shoot. I need the feeling that the photo is taken at the very moment i press the shutter release. All my previous Ms gave me this feeling more or less, even my M8.2 did it in spite of its long re-cocking process. With the M11 i have not this feeling anymore and it feels somewhat frustrating even if i can live with that. The shutter noise is low fortunately. Strange, I don't sense any more delay in missing the moment, even compared to something fast like the R5. I wonder if the length of the new mechanical shutter sound gives you the feeling of slowness. I think it did for me at first, like the camera was still "thinking". If you're not shooting action, try switching to electronic shutter for a day's shooting – similar response time, but it feels much more instant since it's completely silent. Edited June 29, 2022 by hdmesa 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted June 29, 2022 Share #180 Posted June 29, 2022 5 hours ago, tom0511 said: When using the M10 in liveview (as you suggested for getting multifield metering) there is quite a bit longer shutter lag, which I did not really like. Therefore I used the classic metering with the M10(r). I lived with the classic metering for 30 years, but allways found it a bit less than ideal. Now with the M11 I dont really miss the classic exposure metering of the M10 and previous Ms. The sound of M11 is not as nice as M10P/R, but its fine for me. I feel I get a better exposure in critical light situations now without having to doublecheck the result. With previous figital Ms I did dial in more minus exposure compensation to avoid occasional blown highlights. So I ended up sometimes with slightly underexposed images which I had to slightly boost in post. Which is not an advantage for noise and DR. So M12 please with faster startup, same exp metering like M11, a little bit optimized shutter sound (compared to M11), and a fast readout electronic shutter as an option. I have the identical experience and thoughts with regard to the M11 versus M10-P/R shutter and metering. Classic metering + negative exposure comp is fine for casual photos, but for anything critical on the M10-R, I used the LCD or Visoflex (so I could see the histogram) and endured the ensuing shutter "building collapse" sound and the resulting post-explosion ear-ringing and blackout daze 😆 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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