Core of the digital M

[hdmesa]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 hours ago, tom0511 said:

When using the M10 in liveview (as you suggested for getting multifield metering) there is quite a bit longer shutter lag, which I did not really like. Therefore I used the classic metering with the M10(r). I lived with the classic metering for 30 years, but allways found it a bit less than ideal. 

Now with the M11 I dont really miss the classic exposure metering of the M10 and previous Ms. The sound of M11 is not as nice as M10P/R, but its fine for me. I feel I get a better exposure in critical light situations now without having to doublecheck the result. With previous figital Ms I did dial in more minus exposure compensation to avoid occasional blown highlights. So I ended up sometimes with slightly underexposed images which I had to slightly boost in post. Which is not an advantage for noise and DR.

So M12 please with faster startup, same exp metering like M11, a little bit optimized shutter sound (compared to M11), and a fast readout electronic shutter as an option.  

 

 

I have the identical experience and thoughts with regard to the M11 versus M10-P/R shutter and metering. Classic metering + negative exposure comp is fine for casual photos, but for anything critical on the M10-R, I used the LCD or Visoflex (so I could see the histogram) and endured the ensuing shutter "building collapse" sound and the resulting post-explosion ear-ringing and blackout daze 😆

[FlashGordonPhotography]

19 hours ago, lct said:

You mean on M10's in classic mode? Just asking as i have no experience with those cameras.

Yes. That’s the official difference between the M10R and M11 in non-live view, according to Leica. Basically less than an error in my reaction time.

Gordon

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[FlashGordonPhotography]

And for the record, I do prefer the M10R sound, if I’m listening for it, over the M11. But I swap back and forward and occasionally wondering why my M10M hasn’t booted up. I’m waiting for the M11 click….. And I don’t really hear the shutter in a way I remember it. I just use each camera. The M10R sound is nicer. Neither is distracting or noticable for my subjects. Neither is faster or slower for the shooting process. This is also a comparison to the M10P/M/R. The original M10 is much louder than the M11.

 

Having said that I would like Leica to consider implementing an EFCS on the M11 and SL2/SL2S. It would solve all the concerns people have. It wouyld need to be programmed to only have EFCS below 1/250. But that’d work.

Gordon

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

And for the record, I do prefer the M10R sound, if I’m listening for it, over the M11. But I swap back and forward and occasionally wondering why my M10M hasn’t booted up. I’m waiting for the M11 click….. And I don’t really hear the shutter in a way I remember it. I just use each camera. The M10R sound is nicer. Neither is distracting or noticable for my subjects. Neither is faster or slower for the shooting process. This is also a comparison to the M10P/M/R. The original M10 is much louder than the M11.

 

Having said that I would like Leica to consider implementing an EFCS on the M11 and SL2/SL2S. It would solve all the concerns people have. It wouyld need to be programmed to only have EFCS below 1/250. But that’d work.

Gordon

EFCS should reduce the shutter lag a bit as well, but I would be surprised if Leica implements it just for the sound as shutter shock is not an issue, AFAIK.

[jdlaing]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

EFCS should reduce the shutter lag a bit as well, but I would be surprised if Leica implements it just for the sound as shutter shock is not an issue, AFAIK.

There is no shutter shock in an M body because the sensor package is fixed in place. No IBIS. 

It’s not an issue because there is none.

[jdlaing]

PS: 

Stop wishing for things you won’t like.

[jdlaing]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

😃

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

There is no shutter shock in an M body because the sensor package is fixed in place. No IBIS. 

It’s not an issue because there is none.

Shutter shock is not related to the presence of IBIS.

[Herr Barnack]

12 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I have the identical experience and thoughts with regard to the M11 versus M10-P/R shutter and metering. Classic metering + negative exposure comp is fine for casual photos, but for anything critical on the M10-R, I used the LCD or Visoflex (so I could see the histogram) and endured the ensuing shutter "building collapse" sound and the resulting post-explosion ear-ringing and blackout daze 😆

Bruce Gilden must be prostrate with gratitude for the M11's shutter. 

He can now get his trademark horrified expressions from his street photography subjects without using a flash.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[jdlaing]

14 hours ago, SrMi said:

Shutter shock is not related to the presence of IBIS.

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by jdlaing

[jaapv]

22 hours ago, SrMi said:

Shutter shock is not related to the presence of IBIS.

Could you please explain? As far as I can see, shutter shock induces camera movement (causing motion blur) and IBIS is designed to counteract camera motion.
One could argue that the frequency of shutter shock might be too high for an IBIS system, but this is not the case. Panasonic offers an automatic Electronic Shutter system on some models which only kicks in at shutter speeds that are at risk shutter shock with the most used lenses  and that is around 1/125  IBIS certainly can cope with that range  
 

 

Er

[SrMi]

41 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Could you please explain? As far as I can see, shutter shock induces camera movement (causing motion blur) and IBIS is designed to counteract camera motion.
One could argue that the frequency of shutter shock might be too high for an IBIS system, but this is not the case. Panasonic offers an automatic Electronic Shutter system on some models which only kicks in at shutter speeds that are at risk shutter shock with the most used lenses  and that is around 1/125  IBIS certainly can cope with that range  

My post was originally directed to the unfounded claim that shutter shock can only occur with cameras that have IBIS.

There has been speculations that IBIS could prevent shutter shock, but that has also never been confirmed. 

 

[jaapv]

I see. 😀 It would be quite surprising if IBIS were not effective against shutter shock 

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I see. 😀 It would be quite surprising if IBIS were not effective against shutter shock 

I think IBIS is designed to prevent camera shake caused by operator motion. Sony, Nikon, Fuji GFX100 all have IBIS and shutter shock that requires use of EFCS.

Do you know a camera where turning on IBIS eliminates IQ degradation caused by shutter shock?

[jaapv]

How can a camera know the source of shake? 

[IkarusJohn]

I suspect that lack of shutter slap will be at the core of the M, but the shake of the user might be something else …

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

How can a camera know the source of shake? 

The vibrations from shutter shock are very different from user-induced motion. It’s not that IBIS can differentiate between them, it’s that IBIS is only designed to detect and mitigate  one and not the other.

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I suspect that lack of shutter slap will be at the core of the M, but the shake of the user might be something else …

Shutter actuation and sound may be at the core of what some M users want from an M camera, but IMO the core of the M camera itself is discrete shooting, which a shutterless M camera would be true to.

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

How can a camera know the source of shake? 

The shutter shock is a different type of movement than the handholding movements (frequency etc). I would assume that IBIS algorithms are tuned for handholding movements.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

As I said the shutter shock is analogous to camera movement @ 1/125.