Core of the digital M

[hdmesa]

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10 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Can you point me to where this info is stated for the SL/SL2/SL2-S or CL/TL/TL2? I was not aware that this was the case. I have just shot the SL2-S with the lens off and a 1 sec exposure and it looks like a fully mechanical shutter to me. Sounds like it as well.

There is no EFCS setting for the SL2-S - it is mechanical, electronic or hybrid (i.e. it chooses electronic shutter automatically for fast speeds).

When I say other mirrorless, I didn't mean Leica, sorry. No EFCS is glaring oversight of the SL line.

(Also talking about higher-end full frame cameras.)

Edited June 26, 2022 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

when just about any other mirrorless with permanent liveview (SL or CL series, for example) has only a single click shutter sound. What's going on in the M11 that has to be different?

I think that is a legacy from the exposure measuring off the shutter by earlier models.

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[LocalHero1953]

6 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

When I say other mirrorless, I didn't mean Leica, sorry. No EFCS is glaring oversight of the SL line.

OK, understood. I haven't noticed any shutter shock issues with the SL, SL2 or SL2-S (I didn't use the CL in a manner where I had to worry about shutter shock). I don't know if that is a result of IBIS or just a heavier inertial mass.
My point remains, the SL and CL series manage a single snick, while the M11 has a muffled stapler effect, and the reason for that is not clear, given that both sets of shutters are doing the same operations.

You may be right - it could be because of limitations of space (though the CL probably has even less space).

[hdmesa]

28 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

OK, understood. I haven't noticed any shutter shock issues with the SL, SL2 or SL2-S (I didn't use the CL in a manner where I had to worry about shutter shock). I don't know if that is a result of IBIS or just a heavier inertial mass.
My point remains, the SL and CL series manage a single snick, while the M11 has a muffled stapler effect, and the reason for that is not clear, given that both sets of shutters are doing the same operations.

You may be right - it could be because of limitations of space (though the CL probably has even less space).

SL is not a single snick – it's just a very well-dampened shutter that moves much faster.

[lct]

32 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My point remains, the SL and CL series manage a single snick, while the M11 has a muffled stapler effect, and the reason for that is not clear, given that both sets of shutters are doing the same operations.

I have no experience with SL cameras but look at your CL. Remove the lens. Then what do you see? The sensor in all its splendor and lack of protection vs dust and the like. On the M11, the sensor is protected by the shutter that has been actuated once more i guess but don't ask me more i'm not sure to understand myself what i say .

Edited June 26, 2022 by lct

[hdmesa]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

I have no experience with SL cameras but look at your CL. Remove the lens. Then what do you see? The sensor in all its splendor and lack of protection vs dust and the like. With the M11 the sensor is protected by the shutter that has been actuated once more i guess but don't ask me more i'm not sure to understand myself what i say .

M11 shutter only closes at power off or for sleep mode. So yes, it protects the sensor. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

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Might be worth noting that some lower-end full frame cameras are EFCS-only or EFCS + electronic only (Canon RP for example) and lack a full mechanical shutter.

[lct]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

M11 shutter only closes at power off or for sleep mode. So yes, it protects the sensor but affects the shutter actions needed because it's also open when the camera is turned on.

OK but the sensor of my Sony is exposed as well. The number of shutter actuations seems at play there too.

[LocalHero1953]

10 minutes ago, lct said:

I have no experience with SL cameras but look at your CL. Remove the lens. Then what do you see? The sensor in all its splendor and lack of protection vs dust and the like. On the M11, the sensor is protected by the shutter that has been actuated once more i guess but don't ask me more i'm not sure to understand myself what i say .

I no longer have the CL and I don't have a M11. But I thought the point of the M11 was that it had permanent liveview, and that the shutter was always open before and after shooting - so the sensor would not be protected? But this shouldn't make any difference to the shutter sound.

The SL2-S shutter remains open when switched off.

Edited June 26, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[hdmesa]

Just now, LocalHero1953 said:

...I thought the point of the M11 was that it had permanent liveview, and that the shutter was always open before and after shooting - so the sensor would not be protected?

M11: at power-off or power-down-for-sleep, the shutter closes. When you turn on the M11, the first thing you hear is the shutter opening. Shutter is always protected unless you take off your lens while it's powered on.

[lct]

2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I no longer have the CL and I don't have a M11. But I thought the point of the M11 was that it had permanent liveview, and that the shutter was always open before and after shooting - so the sensor would not be protected?

As @hdmesa explained above, the M11 shutter closes at power off or for sleep mode.

[hdmesa]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

OK but the sensor of my Sony is exposed as well. The number of shutter actuations seems at play there too.

Sony (and Leica SLs) doesn't close the shutter at power off. Not sure why – laziness in firmware? Canon R, R6, R5, R3 are like the M11 and close the shutter at power-off.

Edited June 26, 2022 by hdmesa

[lct]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

Canon R, R6, R6, R3 are like the M11 and close the shutter at power-off

Ok then the number of shutter actuations is the same or not? Sorry too stupid to understand all this.

[hdmesa]

8 minutes ago, lct said:

Ok then the number of shutter actuations is the same or not? Sorry too stupid to understand all this.

Every power-on + power-off cycle is a single shutter actuation – half on power-on (opening shutter) / half on power-off (closing shutter).

In normal shooting with mirrorless, the mechanical shutter actuations themselves are the same number of movements. With EFCS, there are fewer shutter actuations because there is no front curtain movement.

Edited June 26, 2022 by hdmesa

[LocalHero1953]

M11, SL series, CL/TL series all have the following sequence in a camera that is already on and awake: close-open-close-open. 
The M10 and earlier digital Ms, when in traditional non-LV mode had the following sequence: open-close.
That's the benefit of a rangefinder body with OVF: you don't need the shutter open to frame your image, so the shutter actuations, and sound/vibration management, are simpler. And that's what the M11 seems to be moving away from.

I can't answer for other brands.

Edited June 26, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[hdmesa]

10 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

M11, SL series, CL/TL series all have the following sequence in a camera that is already on and awake: close-open-close-open. 
The M10 and earlier digital Ms, when in traditional non-LV mode had the following sequence: open-close.
I can't answer for other brands.

Yes, this. And this is why EFCS would let us keep live-view metering while still having fewer shutter movements. It wouldn't be exactly the same as the M10-P/R, but it would be much quieter than the current shutter dance. EFCS: exposure starts electronically and is stopped mechanically – versus being started and stopped mechanically – which keeps the shutter from having to close and reopen to start the exposure.

Mechanical shutter (4 clicks):

1. close shutter (so exposure can begin)
2. open shutter (begins exposure)
3. close shutter (ends exposure)
4. open shutter (reactivates live view metering)

EFCS (2 clicks):

1. electronic shutter (starts exposure w/no sound)
2. close shutter (ends exposure)
3. open shutter (reactivates live view metering)

Someone correct me if that's not right, lol. Gets confusing.

Edited June 26, 2022 by hdmesa

[lct]

16 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

And this is why EFCS would let us keep live-view metering while still having fewer shutter movements. It wouldn't be exactly the same as the M10-P/R, but it would be much quieter than the current shutter dance

Thank you but neither M10 nor M11 has EFCS right? So why this dancing thing for one and not for the other? Sorry for asking what must be obvious to you.

[hdmesa]

Just now, lct said:

Thank you but neither M10 nor M11 has EFCS right? So why this dancing thing for one and not for the other? Sorry for asking what must be obvious to you.

Correct. Think of the M11 as the M10 in live view mode. M11 is always in live view mode, even when using the rangefinder. M10 when using the rangefinder has the shutter closed and meters off the shutter blades – only has to open/close shutter with two clicks.

So when you think of the M11 as an M10 in permanent live view, the sound of the M11 shutter is not so bad and neither is the lag. The M10 is pretty loud in live view with significant blackout/lag.

[LocalHero1953]

Just now, lct said:

Thank you but neither M10 nor M11 has EFCS right? So why this dancing thing for one and not for the other? Sorry for asking what must be obvious to you.

Correct.

The difference is:

• M10. Shutter is always closed except when taking pics. So all it has to do is open and close.
• M11. Shutter is always open, so that liveview can work. So to take a pic it has to close, open, close and then open again.

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[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Correct.

The difference is:

• M10. Shutter is always closed except when taking pics. So all it has to do is open and close.
• M11. Shutter is always open, so that liveview can work. So to take a pic it has to close, open, close and then open again.

Yup, which is why adding EFCS in firmware to the M11 would allow it to have the same two clicks as the M10 in rangefinder mode but still keep live view metering – best of both worlds provided they can give us the shutter option to automatically switch back to mechanical above 1/500 sec. to avoid bokeh/exposure artifacts at wide apertures.