M2 black, original or repainted ?

[JaSko]

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Hi colleagues. I would like to ask if somebody knows if this is original black m2 or is repainted ? I could not find according to serial number. Thx.

jaka

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[TomB_tx]

Notice that the film advance lever, self timer lever, and frame selector sever are all from an M4. I suspect it is a repaint, whether originally black or not.

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[Al Brown]

I think this one is from the chrome batch

[Al Brown]

The legend goes that there are only 1871 Leica M2 cameras in *original* black paint.
I found your exact depicted camera (same serial number) here: https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/pp/leicam2.htm
According to serial number, it should date from 1965 - there was a batch of 300 black paint cameras made that year, the last big batch.
 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Al Brown

[Capuccino-Muffin]

Fake and  could be detected from the moon.

Falls within a batch of 3000 silver chrome.

Strap lugs must be black paint.

Too many M4 parts. Bn This is extremely alarming, you do not want a camera that hs been molested this way. Looks like a M4 body fitted with a repainted M2 top plate.

What about the bottom plate? The M2 bp botom plate are particular.

What about the door? 
 

All in all, this ”m2” is worth 50% of a regular silver M2. I personally wouldn’t pay 300$ for that pos.
 

 

[jakontil]

4 minutes ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

Fake and  could be detected from the moon.

Falls within a batch of 3000 silver chrome.

Strap lugs must be black paint.

Too many M4 parts. Bn This is extremely alarming, you do not want a camera that hs been molested this way. Looks like a M4 body fitted with a repainted M2 top plate.

What about the bottom plate? The M2 bp botom plate are particular.

What about the door? 
 

All in all, this ”m2” is worth 50% of a regular silver M2. I personally wouldn’t pay 300$ for that pos.
 

 

Could see from the film loading mechanism, the M2 sport the M3 type without rapid loader 

[madNbad]

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Pacific Rim Camera is a pretty reputable business and buy a lot of inventory from camera stores that are closing. They’re located about forty miles south of Portland and are quite descriptive about their items for sale. It’s odd they would have a camera on their website about black M2s with the exact same serial number if it was a total forgery.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello JaSko,

Welcome to the Forum.

The camera looks very nice. If the internal mechanical condition matches the exterior condition then you have a first class camera to take pictures with for many years to come. Many parts like the film advance, rewind lever, etc. are interchangeable among many of the "M" models & are sometimes changed by people who prefer 1 as opposed to the other.

As to whether the paint is original, etc. These are issues which become important from a purchase price, collectability, resale price point of view. If the camera was bought to be used to take pictures: Most meterless "M" range/viewfinder cameras are pretty much equally usable, durable, dependable, very fine cameras which operate pretty much the same. Mostly. They & their parts have more in common than they have differences.

A photo of the back of the camera would be interesting. As would a photo looking inside the camera from the bottom. with the bottom plate included. Showing the inside of the bottom plate & the inside of the camera both together side by side oriented as they would fit together.

May you have nothing but happy photos with a nice camera whatever it is.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

[JaSko]

39 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello JaSko,

Welcome to the Forum.

The camera looks very nice. If the internal mechanical condition matches the exterior condition then you have a first class camera to take pictures with for many years to come. Many parts like the film advance, rewind lever, etc. are interchangeable among many of the "M" models & are sometimes changed by people who prefer 1 as opposed to the other.

As to whether the paint is original, etc. These are issues which become important from a purchase price, collectability, resale price point of view. If the camera was bought to be used to take pictures: Most meterless "M" range/viewfinder cameras are pretty much equally usable, durable, dependable, very fine cameras which operate pretty much the same. Mostly. They & their parts have more in common than they have differences.

A photo of the back of the camera would be interesting. As would a photo looking inside the camera from the bottom. with the bottom plate included. Showing the inside of the bottom plate & the inside of the camera both together side by side oriented as they would fit together.

May you have nothing but happy photos with a nice camera whatever it is.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Thx Michael and thanks all colleagues for the comments and informations. I still did not the purchase the camera, as the owner wants 5500 Euro for it because of original black paint. This is not cheap and I want to know it this is original black paint or not. Otherwise the camera looks and feels very nice, I know the feeling of holding and shooting Leica M as I own M3. Just wanted to add film camera with the frame lines for my 35 mm Summicron ASPH. Herewith some additional photos of the camera.

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[JaSko]

4 hours ago, Al Brown said:

The legend goes that there are only 1871 Leica M2 cameras in *original* black paint.
I found your exact depicted camera (same serial number) here: https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/pp/leicam2.htm
According to serial number, it should date from 1965 - there was a batch of 300 black paint cameras made that year, the last big batch.
 

 

Thx Al for the valuable information.

[jerzy]

there is a general rule - if the price is too low than the item is suspicious. And this one is too cheap to be original black paint (and too expensive for repainted chrome) . You may check the prices on websites of reputable auction houses, LP Foto in Stockholm has regularly black paint Ms in their auctions. And you may see there as well how does the paint on original BP look like, if not repainted.

[Capuccino-Muffin]

Not original black paint.

Please note that original black paint M2 is now worth +20,000$.

[madNbad]

52 minutes ago, jerzy said:

there is a general rule - if the price is too low than the item is suspicious. And this one is too cheap to be original black paint (and too expensive for repainted chrome) . You may check the prices on websites of reputable auction houses, LP Foto in Stockholm has regularly black paint Ms in their auctions. And you may see there as well how does the paint on original BP look like, if not repainted.

You could also contact Pacific Rim Cameras and inquire if this may be the actual camera that appears on their website or if someone has created one from the image. The camera could be genuine, it's the price that makes it suspicious.

Edited June 17, 2022 by madNbad

[Al Brown]

4 hours ago, madNbad said:

It’s odd they would have a camera on their website about black M2s with the exact same serial number if it was a total forgery.

If you check carefully you will see the link I posted it is not a site about black paint M2s, but about M2s in general.

 

[Al Brown]

2 hours ago, JaSko said:

I want to know it this is original black paint or not.

Just a reminder from the official Leica used store. The financial aspect is slightly different for 100% originals.

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[JaSko]

1 hour ago, madNbad said:

You could also contact Pacific Rim Cameras and inquire if this may be the actual camera that appears on their website or if someone has created one from the image. The camera could be genuine, it's the price that makes it suspicious.

Yes, thx, I wrote them the letter.

[Al Brown]

There have been known examples of M2 assembled from ORIGINAL BLACK PAINT parts done by Leitz on customers request. They had M4 Type flash sync, back door and baseplate. One such camera I know of is #1138568 from 1966.

[250swb]

The serial number states it is a chrome M2 made in a batch of 3000 from 29th April 1965. 

Look at the worn BP flash socket collars and BP rewind knob compared with the wear on the rest of the camera. So the wear across the camera is not consistent and even for a repaint restoration of an original BP M2 the serial number makes it wrong. The fantastical story would be a chrome M2 from 1965 being sent back to Leica sometime later and was upgraded with some M4 parts, and Leica sourced a worn rewind knob plus the two chipped flash socket collars, but put on a new old stock BP M2 top plate and engraved the original serial number on it. I don't know, which comes first, a top plate and serial number that is then painted, or a painted top plate that is then engraved, this would decide if it could even be an original unused BP M2 top plate. In the meantime there were plenty of BP M2's and BP M4's available to save all that expense before prices rose to the levels they are today.

Edited June 17, 2022 by 250swb

[colint544]

Agree with the above poster that it looks like it could be an M4 fitted with an M2 cap. Even the plastic caps on the sync terminals are from an M4. I suppose, as long as it works OK, there's nothing wrong with it, but it should't be priced any higher - arguably it should be a bit lower - than a standard M4. (edit - I was writing this before the above post appeared. I guess it's an M2 then)

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by colint544

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[JaSko]

6 hours ago, 250swb said:

The serial number states it is a chrome M2 made in a batch of 3000 from 29th April 1965. 

Look at the worn BP flash socket collars and BP rewind knob compared with the wear on the rest of the camera. So the wear across the camera is not consistent and even for a repaint restoration of an original BP M2 the serial number makes it wrong. The fantastical story would be a chrome M2 from 1965 being sent back to Leica sometime later and was upgraded with some M4 parts, and Leica sourced a worn rewind knob plus the two chipped flash socket collars, but put on a new old stock BP M2 top plate and engraved the original serial number on it. I don't know, which comes first, a top plate and serial number that is then painted, or a painted top plate that is then engraved, this would decide if it could even be an original unused BP M2 top plate. In the meantime there were plenty of BP M2's and BP M4's available to save all that expense before prices rose to the levels they are today.

Thanks man.