M12 will be more... boring?

[Mike Rawcs]

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I'm as deaf as a post. I always have a silent shutter.

[ravinj]

If Leica can offer "boring" IBIS in the M12 or M13, I will take two of those. Don't need more resolution or better high ISO performance than what M11 has. And increase the internal memory to 128GB. That will be all for today.

[Anbaric]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:36 PM, LEGEND said:

 I need this Leica-branded leather iPhone case but I don't have iPhone...  

Can the Leitz Phone 1 be put in the Leica iPhone case or does the Universe explode?

[ravinj]

I am planning to record the sound of M10-R and play it in an endless loop on road trips.

[Anbaric]

12 minutes ago, Mikeal said:

Theres a reason we pay what we do for Leica cameras. 

Masochism?

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Mikeal said:

This is exactly the problem. An M you should work for every shot. Where does this end? There are many more “aids” you can add to the M. 

You have the IBIS aid. What about the EVF aid? Helps you focus so much better. You can see the photo before you take it. How about auto focus aid? You don’t even have to focus yourself. 

Why the obsession to turn the M into a Fuji XPro? I don’t understand. You should be able to pick up a Leica M3 and a Leica M12 and feel like nothing much has changed. Otherwise, kill the Leica M, improve the Q and make the Q an ILC. 

Stagnation is not a good thing. Luckily, Leica agrees; otherwise, they would have become extinct.

[jaapv]

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2 hours ago, Mikeal said:

This is exactly the problem. An M you should work for every shot.

OK In that case remove the focus patch. And AE.   And auto-ISO. And the DOF scale And exposure compensation. The framelines too for good measure, and the parallax shift. Let's turn it into a box camera, no, let's turn it into a pinhole camera obscura.

[ravinj]

1 hour ago, Mikeal said:

It’s not about the sound. Have you ever shot mirrorless on silent mode? 

These aren’t cameras. They’re consumer electronic devices. 

At what point does Leica stop making the last true camera for connoisseurs of mechanical cameras, and just start pushing more electronic devices that take nice photos?

Theres a reason we pay what we do for Leica cameras. 

I have shot more mirrorless cameras than most people. Do you know Leica still makes "pure mechanical" film cameras too for connoisseurs of mechanical cameras? Here is one:

https://leica-camera.com/en-int/photography/cameras/m/m-a-titan-set

Quote

These aren’t cameras. They’re consumer electronic devices. 

Really?

For people who are confused what a camera is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camera

A camera is an optical instrument that captures a visual image. At a basic level, cameras consist of sealed boxes (the camera body), with a small hole (the aperture) that allows light through to capture an image on a light-sensitive surface (usually a digital sensor or photographic film). Cameras have various mechanisms to control how the light falls onto the light-sensitive surface. Lenses focus the light entering the camera. The aperture can be narrowed or widened. A shutter mechanism determines the amount of time the photosensitive surface is exposed to light.

Edited June 12, 2022 by ravinj

[J12]

1 hour ago, Mikeal said:

These aren’t cameras. They’re consumer electronic devices. 

At what point does Leica stop making the last true camera for connoisseurs of mechanical cameras, and just start pushing more electronic devices that take nice photos?

Features like electronic shutter are just the beginning of the digital transition. Eliminating more hardware and replacing it with software.

With the direction tech is moving, the ultimate expression of a digital camera might be one that only exists in the virtual world. 100% digital. All software and no hardware.

We’re already seeing what computational photography can do on smart phones etc. How long until people can use the same hybrid camera app (virtual camera) in the real world or virtual world?

The distinction between digital and analog will only become more pronounced. Thankful they still make the MP and M-A!

 

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, Mikeal said:

Like I said about 20x already. Leica has their mirrorless cameras to spec them up to their heart’s content. They’re selling them to a whole group that would never buy a rangefinder. You have a varied product line. That’s how you stay relevant, not by killing the Leica M. Just leave it alone. 

The best way to kill an M is to keep it unchanged.

[ravinj]

51 minutes ago, Mikeal said:

Right. So Leica should leave the M alone. Like I said. As a niche product. They can transition their other cameras that way. 

 

Quote

Then you should understand the feel of a real camera vs a consumer electronic device that takes images. 

 

No. That’s not it either. The camera shouldn’t get in the way of you making your shot. 

Is it possible for you not to think in extremes? There’s nothing wrong with adding things to a Leica M that helps you expose better or focus the rangefinder better. But it should still have the feel of a mechanical Leica M. 
 

I can make the same argument you’re making and go the other way and keep adding things to a Leica M until you get a Sony A7RIV. Why stop at IBIS? Keep adding things. 

None of the cameras, mirrorless / mirror"full", etc. I have used were fake cameras, including this medium format, mirrorless, pure mechanical camera: 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited June 12, 2022 by ravinj

[ravinj]

2 minutes ago, Mikeal said:

This is an imaging products company. This is what they do. Panasonic and Sony are consumer electronics companies who happen to make cameras, TVs, refrigerators, microwaves, phones, etc etc. 

 

Anyway. Obviously the answer is No to the “you should understand” question. Got it. 

Obviously you missed the point, which is fine. Next.

[Simone_DF]

9 hours ago, Mikeal said:

This is exactly the problem. An M you should work for every shot. Where does this end? There are many more “aids” you can add to the M. 

You have the IBIS aid. What about the EVF aid? Helps you focus so much better. You can see the photo before you take it. How about auto focus aid? You don’t even have to focus yourself.

Yes, thank you. I'll take all of them.

[nicci78]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:41 PM, LEGEND said:

Or when you press the shutter button you get small electric shock in the finger
for haptic feeling. You can adjust yourself the voltage and how long or short 
this haptic feeling will be. Imagine you set this to max. that way you don't need 
continuous shooting more. Just set to manual and here we go...

Taptic Engine did not send electric shock of anykind. 
It is only a speaker generating infrasounds that you can’t hear but you can feel trough your fingers, hand and wrist. 
 

[LEGEND]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Taptic Engine did not send electric shock of anykind. 
It is only a speaker generating infrasounds that you can’t hear but you can feel trough your fingers, hand and wrist. 
 

I know...

This with small electric shock was only one crazy idea of me...
And I have many more...  

Nikola

[Pyrogallol]

On 6/10/2022 at 7:03 PM, setuporg said:

Thinking of the stapler sound M11 makes and the imperfect eshutter, we are forgetting that the next generation of eshutters, the perfect ones, will obviate mechanical ones altogether.

Imagine that what that camera will feel like.  You can already get a preview with Pixii.  It's a solid body with a great shutter release, that makes a prerecorded click sound.  It feels weird.

Enjoy your mechanical shutter while you can.  Only film cameras will still have those in a few years.

I have never understood why a digital camera needs a shutter? I imagined the recording of the image just has to be switched on and off, just an electrical switch?

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Taptic Engine did not send electric shock of anykind.

On the M12, this function will only be activated when you mount a Voigtländer or Zeiss lens.

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, Pyrogallol said:

I have never understood why a digital camera needs a shutter? I imagined the recording of the image just has to be switched on and off, just an electrical switch?

Because it reads the image by switching on and off each lines after the others. Making rolling shutter and banding evident. 
Before BSI stacked sensor, electronic shutter has to be used under certain circumstances only. Sigma were fool enough to bet on it. And it does not work well. 

[ravinj]

Agree 💯

Edited June 12, 2022 by ravinj

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[ravinj]

7 hours ago, Mikeal said:

There is no point when you say I said your cameras were “fake”. I’ve never typed that word. It’s not uncommon here to find folks with limited basic understanding and good reading comprehension. You’re now making up words I never said. At that point I have to disengage. 

You’re a good Leica customer. You always have to have the newest thing. And this is good. For Leica. 

Yes, you need to move on and find another hobby. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by ravinj