What after M11 (Stefan Daniel's interview)

[M11 for me]

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb lct:

Yes but aside from the lack of IBIS, the M11 succeeds IMHO. When shooting at 1/2f or faster shutter speeds it has never been so easy to take high quality photos with an M camera. An M12 with global shutter and IBIS could well be the perfect rangefinder.

Wonderful to read that. I am persuaded that it will come exactly like that.

There is something else: The cost of ownership of my M is not higher than with my Canon cameras. When I sold my M10 and got the M11 that difference was not higher in € than when I changed the Canon 5D MkIV against the R5. And I know it already that in 5 years I will preorder the M12.

Edited June 5, 2022 by M11 for me

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Yes but aside from the lack of IBIS, the M11 succeeds IMHO. When shooting at 1/2f or faster shutter speeds it has never been so easy to take high quality photos with an M camera. An M12 with global shutter and IBIS could well be the perfect rangefinder.

Global shutter is still too far away.

Stacked sensors have approached the speed of mechanical shutter. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Global shutter is still too far away.

Mind to elaborate? AFAIK Sony does it already for industrial applications (link).

[charlesphoto99]

6 hours ago, jakontil said:

 IBIS, EVF, what else? built in handgrips too?

more lighter body? move to all magnesium? gone the fancy baseplate... now some ppl trying to move sony to wetzlar 

stop craving for M, go with the SL, the m ecosystem is on the verge of losing its identity 

Agree. It's becoming essentially a fancy, expensive point and shoot. It used to be all one needed was a passing knowledge of light and f-stops and shutter speeds, with perhaps a light meter, internal or external, as backup confirmation. Now, it's auto this, highlighted weighted that, LV peaking this, auto ISO that, etc etc none of which actually works properly in real life because the camera is a dumb object - it can't actually visualize and control light, or focus - that is up to the photographer! Sure A mode can be handy sometimes, but I've never once used it and not had it mess me up eventually when trying to craft something beyond the ordinary. 

But hey, may as well take it all the way and start developing new lenses for the M with auto aperture. That way the M can finally get what it seems a lot of well heeled amateurs have been beating around the bush for - the venerable, all doing, all seeing, dumb as rocks P mode. 

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, SrMi said:

It seems that we need to have a stacked sensor (fast readout) that can eliminate a mechanical shutter in order to have IBIS.

Perhaps, but not what he more simply stated… I would like to have that as well, but space is the limit here

Jeff

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Mind to elaborate? AFAIK Sony does it already for industrial applications (link).

There are global shutters available for industrial applications, but none for general photography (cost and image quality constraints?).
With stacked sensors reaching the speed of a mechanical shutter, there may not be a demand for global shutter development for photography.

BTW, I think the next important step for camera sensors will be the photon counting sensors which would allow much better low light performance.

[Photoworks]

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One day many cameras will have a global shutter.

At this point there are pro and cons related to that.

- Less DR

- More Noise

+ you could use flash

+ No more jello

[didier]

5 hours ago, M11 for me said:

Good that you formulate "I do not think that . . .".

In reality things are different 😀

Thanks for noticing it….

In this World, way too many peuple confuse opinions and facts, I try to avoid mixing up giving my opinion and stating a pure fact  

 

[hdmesa]

14 hours ago, setuporg said:

After M11, there will be:

• M11-P
• M11 Monochrom
• if we are very lucky, M11-D!
• M11 special editions
• M12
• ...

No, if we're very lucky, the M11 Monochrome will come before the "P".

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

...With stacked sensors reaching the speed of a mechanical shutter, there may not be a demand for global shutter development for photography...

A global shutter allows the entire sensor to exposed at the same moment, which is a step up from an electronic shutter that cascades across the sensor, even a fast one.

 

[M11 for me]

Maybe M shooters do not need such an advanced sensor considering that many users use the M as travel, landscape, architecture camera etc. But not car racing, nor sport etc. I imagine that users like myself do not really need mechanical shuter. IBIS has much more advantages than mechanical shuter in most situations.

Is that true?

Edited June 5, 2022 by M11 for me

[lct]

3 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

Maybe M shooters do not need such an advanced sensor considering that many users use the M as travel, landscape, architecture etc. But nit car racing, not sport etc. I imagine that users like myself do not really need mechanical shuter

Or perhaps you don't need really an e-shutter? I do on noisier cameras cameras but i have to switch bask to mechanical shutter on moving subject matters and artificial light. On the M11 the mechanical shutter is so discrete that i tend to be satisfied with that. Now when a total silence is needed i'd appreciate to be able to use an e-shutter w/o restriction. I seem to recall that Pixii have a solution on a rolling shutter but i don't remember where i read that. 

[SrMi]

24 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

No, if we're very lucky, the M11 Monochrome will come before the "P".

A global shutter allows the entire sensor to exposed at the same moment, which is a step up from an electronic shutter that cascades across the sensor, even a fast one.

 

Yes, but if the sensor readout speed (Z 9: 1/240sec) reaches the speed of the mechanical shutter (1/300sec), it should be good enough. The mechanical shutter also rolls up or down, similarly to the sensor readout. 

 

[SrMi]

18 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

Maybe M shooters do not need such an advanced sensor considering that many users use the M as travel, landscape, architecture camera etc. But not car racing, nor sport etc. I imagine that users like myself do not really need mechanical shuter. IBIS has much more advantages than mechanical shuter in most situations.

Is that true?

IMO, the current M11 sensor readout speed is too slow to be generally useful. Leica could add a 12-bit readout mode, thus doubling the readout speed.

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

Or perhaps you don't need really an e-shutter? I do on noisier cameras cameras but i have to switch bask to mechanical shutter on moving subject matters and artificial light. On the M11 the mechanical shutter is so discrete that i tend to be satisfied with that. Now when a total silence is needed i'd appreciate to be able to use an e-shutter w/o restriction. I seem to recall that Pixii have a solution on a rolling shutter but i don't remember where i read that. 

We need e-shutter for faster shutter speeds or in case the IBIS is added (requires elimination of mechanical shutter).

[lct]

8 minutes ago, SrMi said:

We need e-shutter for faster shutter speeds or in case the IBIS is added (requires elimination of mechanical shutter)

My Sony has both IBIS and a mechanical shutter, would you mind to explain?

[hdmesa]

18 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Yes, but if the sensor readout speed (Z 9: 1/240sec) reaches the speed of the mechanical shutter (1/300sec), it should be good enough. The mechanical shutter also rolls up or down, similarly to the sensor readout. 

 

Yes, but with global shutter you completely eliminate microblur or temporal aliasing/artifacts of any kind. Until the sensor readout speed can equal the fastest exposure, global would be better. But your point is well-taken, in that by the time we get a usable global shutter ,we might have stacked sensor read speeds at or over 1/8000 sec.

[M11 for me]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb lct:

My Sony has both IBIS and a mechanical shutter, would you mind to explain?

That is what Daniels said in the interview. Its space that is the problem and w/o mech shuter the Ibis could be put in

[M11 for me]

Rangfinder = Messsucher in german

[lct]

2 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

That is what Daniels said in the interview. Its space that is the problem and w/o mech shuter the Ibis could be put in

Yes i got that thank you it's just our colleague @SrMi stating that IBIS "requires elimination of mechanical shutter" i did not understand since my Sony has both. Just curiosity on my part.

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[M11 for me]

So that was my argumentation: Assuming that rolling shutter is not much of an issue for some photographers as they are not active in areas where that effect comes in, then we can say that mech shutter could be left out in order to create space for the IBIS. Of course this is just an assumption and it could be wrong. I bring that in as the might be colleagues here who understand more.