Leica CL discontinued?

[Le Chef]

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48 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Indeed - by becoming the oldest surviving independent camera company. And profitable...🙄

But we don’t know that as they don’t publish detailed financial information. We only have their word for it. If you have hard data to share that shows their financial performance, including cash flow, capitalization and margin over the last 5 years I’m sure a lot of people here would love to see that information.

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[lct]

15 minutes ago, jankap said:

Dear non-armchair-ceo, you are right. The M was and perhaps is the money-mine. They tried to diverse in several directions of photo technics, but were not successful with every try.

The Q line seems to work fine though. Was not obvious at first...

[lct]

Just now, Le Chef said:

But we don’t know that as they don’t publish detailed financial information. We only have their word for it. If you have hard data to share that shows their financial performance, including cash flow, capitalization and margin over the last 5 years I’m sure a lot of people here would love to see that information.

On which grounds? Because it is advised on some camera forums? 

[jankap]

10 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

But we don’t know that as they don’t publish detailed financial information. We only have their word for it. If you have hard data to share that shows their financial performance, including cash flow, capitalization and margin over the last 5 years I’m sure a lot of people here would love to see that information.

It is a private owned company now. No need to publish business details for share holders. And who would be interested: Pixii, LLL, Nikon.....?

Edited April 15, 2022 by jankap

[Le Chef]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

The Q line seems to work fine though. Was not obvious at first...

Following the demise of the CL, Leica’s cheapest camera is now priced above $5,000.  That’s a tough entry point for the customer to buy into Leica when they have likely already established systems with other camera makers.

[Le Chef]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

On which grounds? Because it is advised on some camera forums? 

If people make claims that Leica is profitable then what proof do we have? I guess if the information cannot be shared then we should dismiss the claims associated with it.

[jankap]

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For what do you need a proof? Your camera will hold some years still, if they stop with this line. If you are a collector, it could be an advantage, if a line is cancelled. Think of the M9s bought by collectors for their collection.

Edited April 15, 2022 by jankap

[lct]

Just now, Le Chef said:

If people make claims that Leica is profitable then what proof do we have? I guess if the information cannot be shared then we should dismiss the claims associated with it.

A private owned company is a private owned company and if a product is profitable it sells. I don't need other proofs personally but YMMV.

[adan]

Speaking of proof, can anyone provide proof that this is not an accurate representation of the TL/CL market? (actually, it probably is inaccurate - the blue circle (and overlap) should be much smaller, or the yellow circle should be much larger. But I had to make room for the type. )

See also: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1134591-REG/hasselblad_1100181_lunar_camera_black.html

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Edited April 15, 2022 by adan

[Le Chef]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

A private owned company is a private owned company and if a product is profitable it sells. I don't need other proofs personally but YMMV.

Blind faith. Enjoy!
 

The argument should go that any product first needs to sell before it can be profitable. There are plenty of examples of highly profitable companies with shrinking market share - the death spiral. And equally plenty of companies with high sales and zero profitability that have yet to make money.

[LocalHero1953]

Just now, adan said:

Speaking of proof, can anyone provide proof that this is not an accurate representation of the TL/CL market? (actually, it probably is inaccuarte - the blue circle (and overlap) should be much smaller, or the yellow circle should be much larger. But I had to make room for the type. )

See also: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1134591-REG/hasselblad_1100181_lunar_camera_black.html

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

I

How about a diagram showing the overlap between those who want a small, light, modern tech quality camera and those willing to pay more than $2500 for such a unicorn😉? Rather more overlap I suspect.

[Le Chef]

11 minutes ago, adan said:

Speaking of proof, can anyone provide proof that this is not an accurate representation of the TL/CL market? (actually, it probably is inaccurate - the blue circle (and overlap) should be much smaller, or the yellow circle should be much larger. But I had to make room for the type. )

See also: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1134591-REG/hasselblad_1100181_lunar_camera_black.html

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

That’s one way to define it, but there are others. If this was the sole criteria then Leica should have either a) not entered the APSC market at all b) done more work on positioning and pricing strategy c) packed the camera with more advanced technology, which they can afford to develop because they’re claimed to be the most profitable independent camera company.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Le Chef

[jankap]

The Elon Musks are rare. Musk started with nothing(?), taking risks and came with ideas to improve relatively conventional products (cars, rockets, ......). He made it. Other and better than Trump.

[lct]

25 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Blind faith. Enjoy!
The argument should go that any product first needs to sell before it can be profitable. There are plenty of examples of highly profitable companies with shrinking market share - the death spiral. And equally plenty of companies with high sales and zero profitability that have yet to make money.

Nobody's ever succeeded in selling expensive crop cameras, be they Leica or not Leica, besides the M8 and Pixii perhaps but i wouldn't want to bring them bad luck.

Edited April 15, 2022 by lct

[jaapv]

38 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

If people make claims that Leica is profitable then what proof do we have? I guess if the information cannot be shared then we should dismiss the claims associated with it.

You publish your income first...

[nicci78]

Leica did published its financial statements:

go there : Bundesanzeiger.de

Then : type Leica Camera AG 

Leica is profitable again after a catastrophic 2020 year 

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[jaapv]

19 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

claimed to be the most profitable independent camera company.

Which they never did... 🤔 What is so difficult about the word "oldest"? 

[nicci78]

TLDR for Leica accounting. 
 

19/20 FY : -13.5M€ of losses. 
20/21 FY : 5.1M€ of benefits before tax. 
However Leica turnover go down by -9%. Leica Camera AG is getting smaller and smaller at only 260M€ of annual sales. Far from their 480M€ few years ago. 
 

We learn from their conclusion that Leica outperform the rest of industry which lose -22% of sales in average. 
For the whole industry : 
- Full frame sales increased of +2% only
- APS-C & m4/3 shrunk by -14%. 
- Compacts sales plummeted by -34% 

Europe including Germany account for half of Leica sales. So Asian customers are not #1 far from it. 

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Hallo,

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[adan]

2 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Leica should have either a) not entered the APSC market at all...

Possibly.

When the very first Fuji X100 hit the market, I said "Man, Leica should have made this!" Dedicated, marked shutter dial, dedicated aperture ring, optical viewfinder, a "miniature M" (or a digital Canonet QL17 GIII; take your pick). Fixed lens, of course - but a fair proportion of M users could probably have their 35 Summiluxes/Summicrons welded to their cameras and not notice.

I went to the POYi awards a few months later, and every photojournalist (and her sister) there was toting an X100.

Fujifilm "got" what a "Leica-like" APS-C camera should be. Much, much better than Leica did.

[nicci78]

I really think that Leica got look the wrong conclusions about their failures. 
 

What’s their two main product lines have in common except full frame sensor ? 
Aperture ring + speed dial. 
Classic controls is what we expect from Leica. 
 

TL, CL, SL and S line up have neither. 
 

X line has both but lack viewfinder (which is also a minimum for Leica camera) 

 

Maybe Leica is only successful with EVF/OVF + Aperture ring and speed dial + full frame + small form factor. 
 

I really like CL controls but Q2 aperture ring and speed dial is way faster to set up. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by nicci78