Jump to content

Leica CL discontinued?


Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, jankap said:

The Elon Musks are rare. Musk started with nothing(?), taking risks and came with ideas to improve relatively conventional products (cars, rockets, ......). He made it. Other and better than Trump.

To be fair, it seems like he did not, in fact, start from nothing (not arguing with you - just sharing what I looked up).  The main takeaway from this Business Insider article for me was:

"In the mid 1980s, Elon Musk’s father Errol and a copilot were on their way to England aboard a plane they hoped to sell when they landed there. They never made it to their destination. Instead Errol returned to South Africa with a half-share in a Zambian emerald mine, which would help to fund his family's lavish lifestyle of yachts, skiing holidays, and expensive computers."

He then fled South Africa to avoid conscription, attending expensive universities overseas. He has certainly used that foundation to its full advantage, but I don't think anyone would consider that start "nothing".

Anyway, I love my CL. I hope the L Mount system survives and thrives, and maybe the TL lenses will work well with a forthcoming compact, high MP, FF sensor body with articulating screen that hasn't been announced yet :)

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Following the demise of the CL, Leica’s cheapest camera is now priced above $5,000.  That’s a tough entry point for the customer to buy into Leica when they have likely already established systems with other camera makers.

True, but Leica has always been expensive. 

The M3, released in 1954, sold with a 50mm Summicron for US $447. That's $4777 today (according to one of the handy online calculators). And this was a camera made entirely in-house. Something Leica cannot do anymore. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, oldwino said:

True, but Leica has always been expensive. 

The M3, released in 1954, sold with a 50mm Summicron for US $447. That's $4777 today (according to one of the handy online calculators). And this was a camera made entirely in-house. Something Leica cannot do anymore. 

This thread is not about expense. My argument is about poor marketing and communication. If you’re going to sell an expensive product then you need to justify the premium.

Link to post
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

This thread is not about expense. My argument is about poor marketing and communication. If you’re going to sell an expensive product then you need to justify the premium.

Justify to whom, the tax adviser? :D Just kidding but companies selling high end products need nothing else than doing their business their own way and if clients don't like that they know perfectly what to do.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, lct said:

Justify to whom, the tax adviser? :D Just kidding but companies selling high end products need nothing else than doing their business their own way and if clients don't like that they know perfectly what to do.

You’re obviously not a marketing person nor have you worked with high end brands.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

12 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

You’re obviously not a marketing person nor have you worked with high end brands.

Some of them used to appoint me but nothing to do with marketing indeed (law). I can just say what is obvious to me but you don't have to believe me nor do you have to buy Leica products, this is a free world isn't it :cool:.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 3/20/2022 at 8:10 AM, vikasmg said:

This popped up on Leica Rumours:

>>Leica CL Camera Now Listed As Discontinued At B&H<<
Any thoughts - are Leica abandoning the line (I really hope not!) or is there a CL2 coming?

sorry just checked - the B&H site actually says “more on the way”.

Some LR bozo opened BH page with greasy finger on his golden iPhone while sipping on strawberry flavored vodka schmuzy and it slid to the second half of the page where CL packages with lenses are listed as discontinued. While cameras without lenses are not.  

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

My argument is about poor marketing and communication.

So here is a marketing question. How do Rolls-Royce Motors, Ferrari and Lamborghini market their products? (I hate car analogies, but there aren't many other ultra-high-end camera companies for comparison).

https://www.mbaskool.com/marketing-mix/products/17132-rolls-royce.html

https://www.marketing91.com/marketing-strategy-ferrari/

https://www.marketing91.com/marketing-mix-lamborghini/

It's somewhat telling that Ferrari, for example, does not want "just anyone" using their products, and requires background-checks for buyers (!!!) As if the price was not enough of a filter. ;)

Rolls-Royce's "entry-level" price for the brand ($200,000-$250,000) is about 5-6x the average global new-car price in 2021 ($47,000). Lambo and Ferrari are similar.

(Old joke about RR's "communication skills" at one point - a customer asked the horsepower of a RR engine, and the answer from the salesman was "Sufficient, Sir.")

Lamborghini tried marketing motorcycles 30-odd years ago - product was dropped. (Now Ducati is licensing the brand for a limited edition, though - just as Leica licenses its brand for certain high-end Panasonic lenses (as part of a wider deal)).

https://www.ducati.com/ww/en/bikes/diavel/diavel-1260-lamborghini

Historic brand - placement with celebrities - brand placement in "pro use" (racing, for cars) - licensing - intentionally exclusive and limited positioning (Veblen Goods).

That's not necessarily "poor marketing" - if it reaches the customers Leica wants.

I don't necessarily like that Leica chooses to go that route, but since I use M, and it is backwards-compatible with 68 years of lenses (which are, in RR's terminology, "Sufficient, Sir!"), and I only need a new digital-M every 10 years or so, I can live with it. But ask me again in 2027.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Most luxury brands have a good idea of who they want to attract and develop products to meet those demands. 

They also have tiered programs of marketing and communication to attract and retain customers. All of them run extensive social meet and greet programs, ride and drive weekends that fit the lifestyle or the aspired lifestyle. They’re contacted through databases that contain status data so targeting is accurate. Contact is one to one.

All the manufacturers will treat you better the more product you buy. So Ferrari will sell you the entry level model but you will wait a number of years before a new one is available. You are encouraged to buy a pre owned one. If you then buy a V12 you go up a tier then the events you’re invited to get better. If you add things like old race cars or extensive customization to your fleet then you go up another tier. Not long ago a friend was invited by Ferrari and was flown to the factory to preview a new model and was then taken to Venice for a social event.

Bentley, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, etc., all run similar programs as do the watch companies.

The skill is careful targeting and getting to know what your customer wants in order to buy more and stay loyal. They want you and your money and they’re prepared to spend to get it. It’s a concierge service if you like to think of it that way.

Edited by Le Chef
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

You made the claim not me and now you can’t back it up. 

:lol: :lol: 

 I said the oldest. It helps to actually read the thread, and my post. I never said the most profitable... 

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Leica did published its financial statements:

go there : Bundesanzeiger.de

Then : type Leica Camera AG 

Leica is profitable again after a catastrophic 2020 year 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, adan said:

So here is a marketing question. How do Rolls-Royce Motors, Ferrari and Lamborghini market their products? (I hate car analogies, but there aren't many other ultra-high-end camera companies for comparison).

https://www.mbaskool.com/marketing-mix/products/17132-rolls-royce.html

https://www.marketing91.com/marketing-strategy-ferrari/

https://www.marketing91.com/marketing-mix-lamborghini/

It's somewhat telling that Ferrari, for example, does not want "just anyone" using their products, and requires background-checks for buyers (!!!) As if the price was not enough of a filter. ;)

Rolls-Royce's "entry-level" price for the brand ($200,000-$250,000) is about 5-6x the average global new-car price in 2021 ($47,000). Lambo and Ferrari are similar.

(Old joke about RR's "communication skills" at one point - a customer asked the horsepower of a RR engine, and the answer from the salesman was "Sufficient, Sir.")

Lamborghini tried marketing motorcycles 30-odd years ago - product was dropped. (Now Ducati is licensing the brand for a limited edition, though - just as Leica licenses its brand for certain high-end Panasonic lenses (as part of a wider deal)).

https://www.ducati.com/ww/en/bikes/diavel/diavel-1260-lamborghini

Historic brand - placement with celebrities - brand placement in "pro use" (racing, for cars) - licensing - intentionally exclusive and limited positioning (Veblen Goods).

That's not necessarily "poor marketing" - if it reaches the customers Leica wants.

I don't necessarily like that Leica chooses to go that route, but since I use M, and it is backwards-compatible with 68 years of lenses (which are, in RR's terminology, "Sufficient, Sir!"), and I only need a new digital-M every 10 years or so, I can live with it. But ask me again in 2027.

Actually, my Jaguar dealership ( when I still drove one (the cheapest ;) ) once told me (seriously) "we close the doors from time to time, Sir; we want to maintain exclusivity"

Link to post
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Actually, my Jaguar dealership ( when I still drove one (the cheapest ;) ) once told me (seriously) "we close the doors from time to time, Sir; we want to maintain exclusivity"

And that’s why they’re in trouble. That by the way was an excuse for not having done the job properly - they had no one wanting to come in.

  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I get why Leicas are so expensive - they cannot compete in the Nikon/Canon/Sony/Fujifilm market at all, both price-wise and technologically, so why should they bother? They have staked their claim and price point and are trying to make it work. 

If they choose to live on the reputation of 30-40-50 years ago, so be it. I don't like it, but that's just me. Apparently, there are enough people left who buy into the hype (er, reputation) to sustain the company right now. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, oldwino said:

I get why Leicas are so expensive - they cannot compete in the Nikon/Canon/Sony/Fujifilm market at all, both price-wise and technologically, so why should they bother? They have staked their claim and price point and are trying to make it work. 

If they choose to live on the reputation of 30-40-50 years ago, so be it. I don't like it, but that's just me. Apparently, there are enough people left who buy into the hype (er, reputation) to sustain the company right now. 

I get it. 
Leica is stealing we the Leica users’s money. It is no better than Nikon, Canon, or Fujifilm, at least not worth that crazy price.  They are also not transparent in communicating with us. let’s move away, put Leica out of business. Let’s meet in Nikon forum ( or whatever your preference).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I like their reputation for the M3, M4. These are fun cameras to use and I do get complimented by people on my use of ‘retro’ if I’m out walking around and bump into people. 
 

Leica of old had a strong competitive advantage and were able to differentiate themselves in the market based on superb optics and mechanical design and fabrication. They had expertise to get the best performance. Fast forward, we have computers and raw materials (glass) that have levelled the playing field - pretty much anybody with competence can make a good lens and many can make great lenses. In fact, there’s a market for old lenses with their imperfections because modern lenses are now close to perfect. And AF lenses snd cameras are all about electronics and Leica is outgunned in these areas of expertise. The market has also shifted a) away from being dominated by stills to add a significant video component, b) sharing of images electronically where large prints snd high resolution images are less desired. It isn’t obvious how Leica are to thrive. And I wonder if Canon and Nikon are not under pressure too. N and C used to dominate but the shift to digital and electronics dominated cameras opened the doors to new and strong competitors such as Sony. Leica have done well to survive, they could have easily gone the way of Rollei.

Edited by Mr.Prime
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Most luxury brands have a good idea of who they want to attract and develop products to meet those demands. 

They also have tiered programs of marketing and communication to attract and retain customers. All of them run extensive social meet and greet programs, ride and drive weekends that fit the lifestyle or the aspired lifestyle. They’re contacted through databases that contain status data so targeting is accurate. Contact is one to one.

All the manufacturers will treat you better the more product you buy. So Ferrari will sell you the entry level model but you will wait a number of years before a new one is available. You are encouraged to buy a pre owned one. If you then buy a V12 you go up a tier then the events you’re invited to get better. If you add things like old race cars or extensive customization to your fleet then you go up another tier. Not long ago a friend was invited by Ferrari and was flown to the factory to preview a new model and was then taken to Venice for a social event.

Bentley, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, etc., all run similar programs as do the watch companies.

The skill is careful targeting and getting to know what your customer wants in order to buy more and stay loyal. They want you and your money and they’re prepared to spend to get it. It’s a concierge service if you like to think of it that way.

Maybe just forget the "lifestyle" nonsense and enjoy the camera. I personally don't feel any need for Leica (or any company, for that matter) to pretend that I'm special, so long as I keep paying them money.

Edited by MJB
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, MJB said:

Maybe just forget the "lifestyle" nonsense and enjoy the camera. I personally don't feel any need for Leica (or any company, for that matter) to pretend that I'm special, so long as I keep paying.

Then you’re a cheap option for them. The rest of the world likes to be coddled. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...