Selling all to buy a Leica M11?

[LeicaTL35]

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Hello,

I have an SL2 and Leica an M6TTL cameras.

 

4 M lenses. 21,35,50,90

 

Now I am really thinking of buying a Leica M11 and in order to buy it I will have to trade in these two beautiful cameras, and add some extra more money to buy am M11, but finally, I will have just one camera.

 

What I am frightened is if I will miss my Leica SL2’s IBIS (even though it’s ISO performance is not so bright) and my M6TTL’s film shooting experience with it’s very easy to use big shutter speed dial. 

 

I know in the future, I can at least buy SL2-S in order to replace SL2, but Leica M6TTL is a little rare to find, and therefore it seems a little irreplaceable.

Instead of buying Leica M11, there is also a chance to buy a second hand M-E (240), and in that case, I will be able to keep my both cameras.

What would you do? To start to have a digital rangefinder experience, should I at least first try to use M-E 240, or should i directly buy an M11 and enjoy a better experience? 

Are M11’s ISO performance and BSI sensor, which are two major factors that i am tempted to buy it, really that justifiable? 

I would really appreciate your thoughts. 

 

Thanks! 

Edited February 13, 2022 by LeicaTL35

[KenTanaka]

My advice, not knowing you or your photography, is to back away and let your emotions cool. Sounds like the M11 will require compromise and sacrifice. Why?  What will you -really- gain?   In stark fact nobody NEEDS any M camera today.    Are you using your SL2?  What kinds of images could you make with the M11 that you can’t with the SL2? (Ans: none.)  It will probably takes months to get an M11, anyway.  My own advice is to get a grip on why you would make such compromises for this new bauble. Are you just jonesing?

(No need to answer here.  It’s really none of my business.)
 

[Kwesi]

I think the real question here is which of your current cameras do you enjoy using most?

If its the M6, then the M11 is a no brainer. on the other hand if its the SL2, then don't change a thing.

[LeicaTL35]

Just for a little more clarification..
Overall, I really enjoy using both cameras! On the other hand, I am curious about a digital rangefinder experience.

I am interested in street photography. Being able to shoot in low light situations is a plus for me but unfortunately sometimes SL2 creates more grain than I expect. 
.

Other than that, SL2 is a sublime camera, especially with it’s  color rendition, but sometimes I am also missing that rangefinder focussing experience with a digital camera. I really enjoy that with my M6TTL. It feels a real participation to the creative process especially with being able to see the outer of the framelines for a final composition.
 

[Jeff S]

You might consider trading your SL2 for an SL2-S for better high ISO performance.  
 

Would you really give up everything for a camera that you have never experienced?  Strange to me, but it shouldn’t matter what I or others think.  What would I do?  Well, I wouldn’t start by conducting a survey from strangers.  I would think long and hard about my photo goals and how to best achieve them. And maybe demo, rent or buy a used digital M before selling the farm.

After I shot film, and made prints in my darkroom, for decades, I knew when it was time to transition.

Jeff

[Stevejack]

I see the M11 (or any M) more as a second camera, it just doesn't do enough to be the primary camera for my uses - but if you are not into wildlife or sports then the M11 should cover your needs.  

I need to photograph acrobats in a few weeks and yes using the rangefinder would absolutely work, no question, but I have a clear picture in my head of the images I want to make and I can't do it with an M. I can work around it, and make different images, but that's not a compromise I want to make in this case. So you probably need to look closely at your needs and work backwards from there. 

In your position, I would look for a used M240/262. You likely won't lose any money selling it, so if you have some cash that you don't mind tying up for a few months it would be a good move. If you never find yourself reaching for the SL2 during that time, then you can probably safely make a permanent switch. 

[shirubadanieru]

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As an M shooter, definitely keep at least one film body (if you enjoy shooting film that is). Every year film bodies are getting more expensive too so if down the road you regret selling your M6 you will have to pay more to get it back. 

M11 is great, but high ISO is not significantly better than the M10-R (it pretty much does the same thing, but instead of 40MP it is able to do so with 60MP). I wouldn't say that high ISO should be the main reason for you to get the M11. To me the biggest difference has been, ISO 64 (great to shoot during day time), lighter weight (same as your M6), great color (I think it has the best color out of all M digital cameras so far). Also, given M11 does not have IBIS, using a slow shutter speed is not an option if you are shooting handheld. For example, I avoid going below 1/250 with a 35mm or a 50mm. I can still go below it of course, but it's much easier to get a blurry shot with 1/30~1/125...this alone may even out with the SL2S ISO performance (if you can shoot two or three stops slower without any blur, then your ISO doesn't need to be as high). High ISO performance wise, I think that the M11 ISO ~6400 is pretty good, with 10,000 and 12,500 being acceptable, so that's obviously much better than my previous M9 (which would go to about ISO 1250), or a film camera, but not something that will blow you away; if you want insane ISO performance, for that only the Monochrom M10 will do

But..again, IBIS on the SL2S may give you a higher advantage than the M11 when in comes to low light shooting. For example, with the SL2-S the camera would allow you to shoot in a low light scene using the below settings:

1/30 ; f2 ; ISO 1600

Whereas the M11 it would be the below settings to match the SL2-S:

1/250 (-3) ; f2 ; ISO 12500 (+3)

Edited February 14, 2022 by shirubadanieru

[IkarusJohn]

Sell the lot, and buy the M11.

You can futz about what this or that camera won’t do, or you can just get the camera you like, get to know it and make the most of it.  You have an M6, so you know how the rangefinder works.  I’ve come to the conclusion the camera is not for me for a number of reasons - not least, I have three M cameras I’m happy with.

If I was buying into M digital for the first time, I’d either get an M10-R or wait for the next iteration of the M11 - or just buy the M11 and be done with it.

Edited February 14, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[tom0511]

Dont do it. The M11 is great , but give up all the other stuff? For me SL is first camera, M is great but only for certain things, best within the 28-50mm rangr. i would recommend rather buy a used M10 or m type 240 but allow yourself to keep the SL.

 

[tom0511]

Dont do it. The M11 is great , but give up all the other stuff? For me SL is first camera, M is great but only for certain things, best within the 28-50mm rangr. i would recommend rather buy a used M10 or m type 240 but allow yourself to keep the SL.

 

[LeicaR10]

LeicaTL35,  I have 40+ years with the Leica experience.  But first, I might offer some insight into the M11. It is a great camera. I owned it for 3 weeks.  It found a new home here in Australia.  I decided my genre of photography only warrants a mix of the M and SL systems to do what I need to do; landscape and humanity photography.  Your genre of photography might dictate differently.  I highly suspect you are have a case of GAS. (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)  I can speak from experience, there is no cure for GAS after being to rehab several times.  When I get a case of GAS,  I discovered that I best ask myself this important question.  What is the new camera or lens going to do that the current camera(s) and lens(es) cannot do?  Once you answer the question with pros and cons for buying the camera or lens, you will discover the answer.  It will be your choice.  Often you will find  your wallet to be thankful too.  I might add that I agree with Tom0511 in his posts #11 & 13.  Last, I suggest you consider going out and creating masterpiece photographs with your current gear that make the viewer; Stop, Look, Think and perhaps Feel something about that moment in time.  You will find a key to masterful photography is "content", not the camera or lens that took the photograph.  I hope my 2 cents helps you.  r/ Mark

Edited February 14, 2022 by LeicaR10

[250swb]

Despite the headline grabbing 60mp sensor the M11 is the least desirable M upgrade in recent years. You'd only notice a tiny difference in image quality if you only intend to make the same type of photos with it as you are making now. The rest of the camera is 'meh'. If ever there was a camera to wait and jump a generation this is it, and certainly not worth selling a film M for. Instead buy some film and get a new lens or two if the GAS has been lit. 

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

Despite the headline grabbing 60mp sensor the M11 is the least desirable M upgrade in recent years. You'd only notice a tiny difference in image quality if you only intend to make the same type of photos with it as you are making now. The rest of the camera is 'meh'. If ever there was a camera to wait and jump a generation this is it, and certainly not worth selling a film M for. Instead buy some film and get a new lens or two if the GAS has been lit. 

If you had an M11, you would have a different opinion ("least desirable M upgrade in recent years").

[tsleica]

Yeah..just sell all that stuff for the latest and greatest..

And regret it soon after..

And then..buy all that same stuff back again..

And then resell again for M12..

And then..buy back again..lol..

Its really..an infinite circle..to nowhere..

Edited February 14, 2022 by tsleica

[cp995]

If money is not "peanuts" for you I would suggest a (may be used)  M10 and keep the SL for ultra wide angle and/or tele use.
A Leica M is very special and with RF only usable from 28 to 90mm (for my taste).

I'm very happy with my M10 and for me, the aditional features of the M11 are not worth the upgrade.
I'm using a Sony DSLM beside it and a tiny Minolta CLE for film with my M-Lenses!

[charlesphoto99]

17 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

lighter weight (same as your M6)

I picked up an SL2 for the first time the other day, and what a brick! If one is an SL shooter the 100g difference between the 11 and previous gens is nothing. 

To the OP: I wouldn't go for an M240 - there's plenty of used M10's on the market and they will be coming down. Talked to a store person at Leica Bellevue and they say they're getting swamped with trade-ins. So just hang tight. The M10 (or R) are as much or more camera than most need. 

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

I have an SL2 and Leica an M6TTL cameras.

 

4 M lenses. 21,35,50,90

 

Now I am really thinking of buying a Leica M11 and in order to buy it I will have to trade in these two beautiful cameras, and add some extra more money to buy am M11, but finally, I will have just one camera.

 

What I am frightened is if I will miss my Leica SL2’s IBIS (even though it’s ISO performance is not so bright) and my M6TTL’s film shooting experience with it’s very easy to use big shutter speed dial...

@LeicaTL35 My take is this:

Can you live with just one camera?

Can you live without the SL2 and IBIS?

Can you live without your M6TTL?

Can you live with a one camera, one lens kit?

You have got to set aside your emotional reaction to the M11 - and set aside the GAS - and answer these questions honestly.  Otherwise you will do something that you will kick yourself for later. 

My approach would be to do one of the following -

1:  Pick out my least used camera & lens (one of each), trade them in on the M11 and pay the difference in cash.  If that's not doable, there are two other options -

2:  Pick out my most used lens, keep it and trade everything else in on the M11 and pay the smaller difference in cash, or

3:  Keep the gear you have, save up, sell whatever you can in the way of other stuff you have and do not use or need and wait till you can buy the M11 for cash.  If you have a second car (or a motorcycle, boat, snowmobile, all-terrain vehicle, etc.) that you could live without, think about selling it and using the cash to get the M11.

There's no two ways about it, the M11 is godawfully expensive.  Asymmetrical thinking in terms of raising cash to acquire an M11 can be a way to make it happen.

[trickness]

Look through the M11 images thread post. I don't see any photos in there that reasonably couldn't have been taken with an M10 variant, or an SL. There's nothing about the images that scream "I'm SO much better than my predecessors". As always, it's about the photographer, not the gear. There are people taking photos with M9's that are stunning. Most of us would be better off spending money on photo masterclasses, or photo journeys....

But we want what we want and life is short. Can't rationalize with the mind what the heart wants.....

[Ko.Fe.]

23 hours ago, LeicaTL35 said:

Just for a little more clarification..
Overall, I really enjoy using both cameras! On the other hand, I am curious about a digital rangefinder experience.

I am interested in street photography. Being able to shoot in low light situations is a plus for me but unfortunately sometimes SL2 creates more grain than I expect. 
.

Other than that, SL2 is a sublime camera, especially with it’s  color rendition, but sometimes I am also missing that rangefinder focussing experience with a digital camera. I really enjoy that with my M6TTL. It feels a real participation to the creative process especially with being able to see the outer of the framelines for a final composition.
 

SL2 makes no grain but noise.

Lets talk about your interest in street photography, which I participated in naturally since 2007 until covid restrictions and job change.

What kind of "grain" from SL2  you are talking about? Is it low ISO noise or just regular, 6400 and higher ISO noise?

And why it is concern for street photography? Do you practice something like fine art on the streets? 

Also, are you aware what you are about of switching from two more robust cameras to one fragile?

M11 has no weather sealing, freeze prof and no dust reduction on the sensor. Have you done wet sensor cleaning of thin sensor like M11's?

 M6 TTL, you sell it for one price now, two years later it is twice more in price. 

I recommend start saving to trade SL2 for used M11.

M11 is far away from been mature camera. Way too many too serious issues within first weeks of release.  We don't know return rates, but M11 are getting returned back to the stores and replacements have same issues.

If you are about to loose one film M and one digital known in long terms cameras to the camera which has not so good start, wait at least for one year since initial release, to make sure not only serious issues on release were addressed, but long term usage (not bogus initial reviews) was completed and it didn't reveal more serious issues.  This has to be done for M11 more than for any other camera released recently.

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[Alberti]

so. . . you go from film-M to digital & your digital experience is SL?

My background is M. My experience with  L-mount/IBIS, big lenses - it is a complete different world. With the M I take great pictures.

SL-S: the camera with its built-in EVF is great, delivers a superb 24MP file, but for me it is NO match for an M. Ergonomically. Enjoyment. I feel I'm outside of the scene, not part of it like the M allows me to be.

But I am afraid your current M-6 is a  'sleeper', a 'hidden in a drawer/closet' camera. Just a hunch. So does the M6 camera (still???) feel like an extension to your fingers and eyes?

Yes, why not experience the M240 - if you buy one, the depreciation is virtually nil. It delivers great results. It has a great palette.

And all lenses will work like a charm. You can use life view for the 21mm. And I use it to check the exposure level, that's all. What else do you need?