Selling all to buy a Leica M11?

[IkarusJohn]

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7 hours ago, SrMi said:

That is not what I meant and this is not about a specific camera. I do not care if anyone likes or dislikes M11 or any other cameras that I own and like.

IMO, in order to form a clear opinion about a camera (e.g., "least desirable upgrade in recent years"), one should use it first. You and many YouTuber's seem to disagree. C'est la vie.

 

Then again, you could already have a camera and understand the photographic process - ISO, aperture, shutter speed, focus, framing … and even have a camera.  You realise the shortcomings of your current camera, and have an idea of what might take you further in your photographic goals.  You start looking at options, and a camera catches your eye.

Now, here things get complicated, because you’re new to this camera.

It seems to me (from my experience), there are two scenarios - (1) you look at the specs and the review, and you might even hold the camera in your hands for a bit; or (2) you already have a similar camera, an earlier model perhaps, so you actually have a very good idea of what the new camera has to offer.  You make a decision.

The next sttep is to get to know your new camera and to make the most of it.  There’s no point in believing anything will meet your needs perfectly.  We all adjust our expectationsto what is available.  If we can’t make it work, we sell and move on.  To say you must use something before you form a clear opinion is, frankly, nonsense.  In your case, how long did you use the camera before you placed your order?  Or had you, in truth, made up your mind before you tried it - or more realistically, you tried it because you were going to buy it?

 

[shirubadanieru]

3 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

Yes, I never quite liked the M240 or M10 files for the reasons you mention (too digital/plasticky). Personally I sometimes found it hard, if not impossible for some images, to get to a more “filmic” rendering that I found pleasing.

The files I’ve tested with the M11 seem quite different in that regard, ie, it’s almost as if the higher resolution (and/or perhaps the way Leica has tuned the M11 sensor) creates additional “smoothness” to the files compared to what I saw off the M240/M10; I really don’t find the M11 files too sharp or digitally harsh. For me, this has made the M11 more “cinematic” in its image rendering out of the gate, much easier to process in that regard, even with the modern and very sharp APO lenses like the M 50.  With the M11 I see more fine detail, but it’s behaving with a less “digital” rendering at the same time.

Def. agree! M11 files are the first digital files since the M9/MM that I truly enjoy. 

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[budjames]

I sold my M10P (factory-converted M10) to KEH to free up some cash for when my M11 arrives. I also own the M10R, which is my main camera, and the SL2 with all three Leica zoom lenses. I use them for different applications, but the M10R with the APO Summicron 35 is my goto set up for 90% of of my shooting.

I have the M11R on order in black. If it works out, I will probably sell my M10R after getting comfortable with the M11. I will not sell my SL2 because of the zoom lenses and the fact by using the M-adapter, I can finally reliable nail focus with my Noctilux 50mm f/0.95 lens.

If I had to chose only one camera, I would definitely keep the M10R and my APO Summicron 35mm and 50mm lenses.

Great to have choices.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto

[Herr Barnack]

6 hours ago, 4r36 said:

I've just read the title of the thread and come here just to say that I'd really like to sell the house to get the M11 but I'm just scared my wife would overreact.

I feel your pain.  Leica wives can be so unreasonable... 

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Then again, you could already have a camera and understand the photographic process - ISO, aperture, shutter speed, focus, framing … and even have a camera.  You realise the shortcomings of your current camera, and have an idea of what might take you further in your photographic goals.  You start looking at options, and a camera catches your eye.

Now, here things get complicated, because you’re new to this camera.

It seems to me (from my experience), there are two scenarios - (1) you look at the specs and the review, and you might even hold the camera in your hands for a bit; or (2) you already have a similar camera, an earlier model perhaps, so you actually have a very good idea of what the new camera has to offer.  You make a decision.

The next sttep is to get to know your new camera and to make the most of it.  There’s no point in believing anything will meet your needs perfectly.  We all adjust our expectationsto what is available.  If we can’t make it work, we sell and move on.  To say you must use something before you form a clear opinion is, frankly, nonsense.  In your case, how long did you use the camera before you placed your order?  Or had you, in truth, made up your mind before you tried it - or more realistically, you tried it because you were going to buy it?

 

When I decide to buy a camera, I do not clearly understand its shortcomings and advantages. 
You have outlined the two scenarios that can lead to a purchase. However, I have not tried M11 before getting it. But, except for Sony a7rII, in the end, I was always happy with my purchase (i.e., it met my expectations).
After using a camera for a while, I feel comfortable making an informed opinion. I do not share my opinion about a camera that I do not use.

[IkarusJohn]

Just now, SrMi said:

When I decide to buy a camera, I do not clearly understand its shortcomings and advantages. 
You have outlined the two scenarios that can lead to a purchase. However, I have not tried M11 before getting it. But, except for Sony a7rII, in the end, I was always happy with my purchase (i.e., it met my expectations).
After using a camera for a while, I feel comfortable making an informed opinion. I do not share my opinion about a camera that I do not use.

And yet, you seem to suggest that people sharing their reasons for NOT buying the M11 should try the camera first, or should at least not share those opinions as they haven’t tried it?

[SrMi]

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9 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

And yet, you seem to suggest that people sharing their reasons for NOT buying the M11 should try the camera first, or should at least not share those opinions as they haven’t tried it?

Hmmm, that was not what I wanted to convey. Opinions, doubts, and questions are very useful, regardless of whether one owns a camera. However, judging a camera feature only from second-hand information is something I can't entirely agree with. A good example is the shutter-lag-issue. The increase has been measured between 2ms and 17ms, yet members who have never used the camera insisted it makes the camera unusable in certain photography situations. 

[IkarusJohn]

Unusable?  I haven’t seen any suggestion of that, but then I would have ignored it.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Unusable?  I haven’t seen any suggestion of that, but then I would have ignored it.

I should follow your strategy :).

[Herr Barnack]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:39 PM, SrMi said:

Hmmm, that was not what I wanted to convey. Opinions, doubts, and questions are very useful, regardless of whether one owns a camera. However, judging a camera feature only from second-hand information is something I can't entirely agree with. A good example is the shutter-lag-issue. The increase has been measured between 2ms and 17ms, yet members who have never used the camera insisted it makes the camera unusablein certain photography situations. 

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

For those who make that claim, we should have a test.  Blindfold them and put headphones on them playing the 1812 Overture.  Then we hand them two cameras, one at a time - an M11 and an M10R. Let us see who can truly tell the difference by the feel of that 17/1000 sec. shutter delay by touch alone.

Quote

...it makes the camera unusable...

Well of course.  All hands on deck at Leica toiled away relentlessly for over four years to create and deliver to the Leica faithful a camera that is unusable.  And then they make us pay $9000 USD for that unusable camera.

 

[IkarusJohn]

31 minutes ago, Artin said:

I’ll make a bold statement on this no problem. I strongly object to anyone making a judgment on a product that they have not used or experienced. Last few months we had a huge amount of Armchair quarterbacks giving their strong opinions on why not to commit to the M11. Which I thought was wrong. 
 But having said that I can clearly see that anyone who wants one and has the means got it and are very happy with it. So Bottom  line ..... If you want it and can afford it decision is easy. Buy it try it if you don’t like it sell it. You won’t loose your money there is more demand then inventory. 

So, you've never made a judgment on any product without using it or experiencing it?  Really?  No judgment on cars which are the wrong configuration (coupe, MPV or SUV) not powerful enough or just plain ugly?  Interesting.

I like your stigmatising of anyone with an opinion as being an "Armchair quarterback" (whatever that is).  Why is it wrong for someone to look at the product release, view the specs and decide - Not for me?  I assume on that metric, you've bought every Leica camera, or at least tried them all.

I agree that anyone who likes the camera should buy it, if they can afford it.  Those who don't shouldn't, and they don't need to try everything they don't like the look of before they don't buy it (that sentence doesn't really make sense - but that is appropriate, I guess).

No one is criticising your camera, Arthur; nor are they criticising your decision to buy it.

[Herr Barnack]

All I can come up with is that the M11 has to be a SERIOUSLY crappy camera - I have been in the Leicaverse since 2003 and I have never heard an M camera be so bashed and maligned as the M11. 

The fact that the majority of the bashing and maligning comes from people who have never even touched an M11, let alone pressed the shutter release on one is testament to how truly crappy the M11 is.  It so so crappy that these non-M11 users/owners can tell it's crappy just from looking at pictures of it on the interweb.

[IkarusJohn]

55 minutes ago, Artin said:

No I have not ever made a public judgment on any product that I have not tried as far as it’s performance or ability . Looks yes which is subjective. 
nothing is wrong with someone saying not for me is fine but to criticize performance without first hand knowledge is ignorant 

Ah, now Arhtur - you added “public”!

The point is, this forum is mostly about discussing Leica gear.  It is hardly “ignorant” for people to share their opinions or decisions, and why they’ve made them.

As to multi-field metering, you’re being uncharitable saying people haven’t tried it - any dSLR over the last few decades, and the M(240) and M10 based cameras, have all had such metering as an option.

Move on?  Really?  It’s an internet forum.  This discussion will go on for quite a few pages yet … Cheer up, no one is criticising you.  Just sharing their thoughts, that’s all.

Edited February 16, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[harmen]

The main issue in these discussions seems to be separating facts from value.

facts: It’s not particularly helpful when some people opine on facts and features instead of just clarifying them.  Stating that higher MP must mean very blurry pictures is a good example of getting the facts wrong.  Personal opinion has no role whatsoever when it comes to facts.

value: Similarly it’s not helpful when a value judgement, i.e., do I personally find the features useful and worth my money, is either stated or misunderstood as a fact that holds generally.  Some people will assume it’s an attack on their own choice.  It works both ways, when proclaiming the M11 is rubbish and when proclaiming it’s superior.

However, as long as nobody takes it too seriously, all these discussions make this cafe a wonderful place to hang out.

[matted]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:27 AM, Jon Warwick said:

Yes, I never quite liked the M240 or M10 files for the reasons you mention (too digital/plasticky). Personally I sometimes found it hard, if not impossible for some images, to get to a more “filmic” rendering that I found pleasing.

The files I’ve tested with the M11 seem quite different in that regard, ie, it’s almost as if the higher resolution (and/or perhaps the way Leica has tuned the M11 sensor) creates additional “smoothness” to the files compared to what I saw off the M240/M10; I really don’t find the M11 files too sharp or digitally harsh. For me, this has made the M11 more “cinematic” in its image rendering out of the gate, much easier to process in that regard, even with the modern and very sharp APO lenses like the M 50.  With the M11 I see more fine detail, but it’s behaving with a less “digital” rendering at the same time.

I have found this as well with files from the Fuji GFX 100, and Phase One IQ4-150, which as I understand it are based on the same sensor as the M11, just scaled to different sizes. I think the higher resolution really helps overcome what some (including me) found objectionable in lower resolution CMOS sensors.

[opera207]

I will sell sl2 and some least used lenses, buy M11 and sl2-s.

Since I don't shoot film, I will sell m6 ttl too, but it is me, not you.

M11: only for still, high res, good looking, light weight, high spec.

sl2-s: af, ibis, great color, good low light performance,  great video, and sl apo lenses with lower price (than M apo)

For M, one apo and one cheap lens, for SL, one SL apo ( sl 35 apo!) and some Panasonic lenses. 

These two will cover most of needs I think. Perfect.

[phototrope]

I was in a similar situation, but with  Nikon cameras and 2x Leica MP film cameras. In the end I found a way to keep the analogue MP bodies and sell some of the other gear to get an M11.  I'm happy I did. The M11 is an amazing camera and a joy to use. It has completely changed my photography. I don't regret selling anything - but I'm sure I would regret selling the MP bodies. I would advise something similar to you.

Edited August 21, 2022 by phototrope